Luthern beliefs

[Balthazor]

I have a question....

The one really big thing I just do not understand about Protestant chuches is why they do not have real presence....that is why don't they believe in transubstantiation? The Orthodox believe, and from my research it was what the early church taught and furthur more it is right in the Bible, Jesus said "this is my body"
It was not a simile or a metaphor, there was no like or as in there.

I really want to know why the Protestants abandoned this teaching.
It perplexes me, I really want to know. Edited November 24, 2004 by Balthazor

[Guest Aluigi]

lutherans believe in consubstantiation. if you wanted me to, i could probably play devil's advocate and come up with scripturally based arguments for that, but it is an ambandonment of what Christ intended as far as I'm concerned. if i wanted to prove consubstantiation, i'd probably point to passover orders that say eat both the bread and the flesh of the lamb. i'd argue yeah, He made it His body, that's what He said. but He never said it wasn't also bread, but that it was the bread of life, it was both bread and His flesh.

then me, the real me, would probably counter: well there's a lot of stuff from the passover meal we no longer use, oils and all that, and no one's sugesting we go back to that. the entire purpose was to make the sacrifice unbloody under the appearance of bread so these can be combined and you don't need substantially present bread to remain after the consecration. then Jesus didn't say this is partially my body and partially a piece of bread, His words were too strong to make that cop-out.

and then i'd check myself into a mental institution for skitzophrenia. you know, i've never seen a lutheran use these arguments, i bet their apologists would love to see me convert, i'd be like the scott hahn of lutheranism, unless they use these arguments and i've just never seen em before.

[conservativecatholic]

The Lutheran Church is not the same church Martin Luther established some time ago. In fact, The Lutheran Church has shattered into numerous bodies. One of them being the ELCA. The ELCA has to be one of the most liberal Churches in all of Christianity. They support gay rights, women ministers, abortion, euthanasia, the list goes on.

About their wacky belief on the Eucharist... consubstantiation has to be one of the most dumbfounding things I've ever heard. It's the Body but not the Body because its also symbolic. Makes a lot of sense!!!!

Edited November 24, 2004 by conservativecatholic

[sortacatholic]

If you want wacky - you should try the Anglican Church (aka. Episcopal or Church of England)

Nobody seems to know what's going on - my church which is Anglo Catholic officially teaches Transubstatiation and uses the Paul VI Mass.
Then you get the Evangelical Protestant end of the Church of England which would prefer to use Crammer's Book of Common Prayer rather than the Official CofE Missal "Common Worship" and rejects any idea of Real Presence in the Eucharist!
Then you get that inbetween where the churches would just say "Real Presence" but don't ever get any more specific than that.

Anglican Church as a whole doesn't like to make any statements on what it believes because it's prodominantly made up of two different traditions, both believe very different things!

-sortacatholic (but not quite... yet)

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='sortacatholic' date='Nov 25 2004, 01:35 PM'] If you want wacky - you should try the Anglican Church (aka. Episcopal or Church of England)

Nobody seems to know what's going on - my church which is Anglo Catholic officially teaches Transubstatiation and uses the Paul VI Mass.
Then you get the Evangelical Protestant end of the Church of England which would prefer to use Crammer's Book of Common Prayer rather than the Official CofE Missal "Common Worship" and rejects any idea of Real Presence in the Eucharist!
Then you get that inbetween where the churches would just say "Real Presence" but don't ever get any more specific than that.

Anglican Church as a whole doesn't like to make any statements on what it believes because it's prodominantly made up of two different traditions, both believe very different things!

-sortacatholic (but not quite... yet) [/quote]
Sortacatholic: It's great to see ya here on Phatmass. The problem with the Anglican Communion is that their are too many branches within the Church. You have your liberals, moderates and conservatives. In the Catholic Church, you have diversity. Although The Catholic Church is diverse, we remain "catholic" or universal in our beliefs regarding the Eucharist. May God Bless! By the way, my Grandma attends a Roman Catholic-Anglican Use Parish which is a church that is in full communion with Rome. They often use Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony during Mass. It's truly awesome! In fact, her parish just constructed a new church that is of neo-gothic architecture. You sould check it out. [url="http://www.walsingham-church.org"]Our Lady of Walsingham[/url]

She began attending the parish once the church became Catholic under the Pastoral Provision. Issued by Pope John Paul II, the Pastoral Provision permits Anglican clergy to convert to Catholicism while retaining their spouse.

[Brother Adam]

"They support gay rights, women ministers, abortion, euthanasia, the list goes on. "

Please substantiate the claim that the ELCA supports or condons abortion. I grew up in the ELCA and have family who is still ELCA and never had heard of this before. All the documents I have read condemn abortion.

[Dreamweaver]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 25 2004, 06:59 PM'] "They support gay rights, women ministers, abortion, euthanasia, the list goes on. "

Please substantiate the claim that the ELCA supports or condons abortion. I grew up in the ELCA and have family who is still ELCA and never had heard of this before. All the documents I have read condemn abortion. [/quote]
[url="http://www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/"]ELCA's Statement on Abortion[/url]
Generally, they are opposed to abortion, knowing the harm it inflicts upon the woman and the unborn child. There are cases where they say abortion is "morally responsible". They strongly encourage people to choose life.

Since the ELCA doesn't have a solid set of unchanging beliefs (like the Catholic Church), there is probably a great deal of beliefs among pastors on abortion, from conservative to liberal.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 25 2004, 06:59 PM'] "They support gay rights, women ministers, abortion, euthanasia, the list goes on. "

Please substantiate the claim that the ELCA supports or condons abortion. I grew up in the ELCA and have family who is still ELCA and never had heard of this before. All the documents I have read condemn abortion. [/quote]
Brother Adam: The ELCA is a denomination that attempts to please everyone. Check out the official stance the ELCA has on abortion-wait-they don't have one! Here is the link to the ELCA website. Let me warn you, be prepared for deception. You will see pages and pages of jibba jabba... nothing but meaningless jibba jabba. Here is a summary of the ELCA's supposed "stance."....

[quote]The Lutheran Church, with its emphasis on unity in the gospel, has a unique opportunity to provide an atmosphere for serious conversation about the abortion issue. Lutherans need not question one another's Christian faith on the basis of positions taken on this or other morally debatable issues.[/quote]


[quote]The taking of life may in some instances be justified.[/quote]

Brother Adam: The taking of innocent life is never justified!

[quote]The Lutheran Church also has a unique opportunity to explode the myth of the absolute freedom of the individual conscience. [/quote]

Brother Adam: It seems as if the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is avoiding the issue. They state the question at hand; however, they never answer it.

[Brother Adam]

As I said, I grew up ELCA, I have a handle on their beliefs. I was personal friends with 2 of the Bishops. While they are very liberal on several issues, and their own statements tend to seem to lend a hand to "pro-choice", in practice they are very strongly Pro-life. They, and wrongly so, tend to stay silent when both the mother and child will die without an abortion, but the mother will live if an abortion is preformed.

[drforjc]

I also grew up Lutheran,(LCMS and ELCA-- my father is an ELCA pastor) and I agree that there is a wide range of opinion on the morality of life and sexuality issues within the ELCA. Because of this, they never seem to be able to take a unified stance on any of them. Being essentially "democratic" in their authority structure, they lack any central authority to do so. It's all done by committee.

As far as "consubstantiation" goes, I consider it incorrect, of course, but I don't like throwing out terms like "wacky." Certainly it's less wacky than the purely symbolic or "spiritual"communion of most other denominations.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='drforjc' date='Nov 26 2004, 11:14 AM'] I also grew up Lutheran,(LCMS and ELCA-- my father is an ELCA pastor) and I agree that there is a wide range of opinion on the morality of life and sexuality issues within the ELCA.  Because of this, they never seem to be able to take a unified stance on any of them.  Being essentially "democratic" in their authority structure, they lack any central authority to do so.  It's all done by committee.

As far as "consubstantiation" goes, I consider it incorrect, of course, but I don't like throwing out terms like "wacky."  Certainly it's less wacky than the purely symbolic or "spiritual"communion of most other denominations. [/quote]
Wacky:
1. Eccentric or irrational: a wacky person.
2. Crazy; silly: a wacky outfit.

Consubstantiation is irrational! Consubstantiation is not clear at all.

The Lutheran Church is very wishy washy when it comes to the Eucharist because it lacks properly ordained priests who have the power to consecrate the bread and wine.

Edited November 26, 2004 by conservativecatholic

[Guest Aluigi]

watch how you word that, it IS both symbolic and the real thing (the Catholic Eucharist) St. Augustine says so. the appearance, the accidence; of bread and wine, is symbolic, the substance is changed to be the Body and Blood of Christ.

they believe the substance remains to be bread and wine while it is also substanitally Jesus' presence.

[sortacatholic]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Nov 26 2004, 12:23 AM'] Sortacatholic: It's great to see ya here on Phatmass. The problem with the Anglican Communion is that their are too many branches within the Church. You have your liberals, moderates and conservatives. In the Catholic Church, you have diversity. Although The Catholic Church is diverse, we remain "catholic" or universal in our beliefs regarding the Eucharist. May God Bless! By the way, my Grandma attends a Roman Catholic-Anglican Use Parish which is a church that is in full communion with Rome. They often use Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony during Mass. It's truly awesome! In fact, her parish just constructed a new church that is of neo-gothic architecture. You sould check it out. [url="http://www.walsingham-church.org"]Our Lady of Walsingham[/url]

She began attending the parish once the church became Catholic under the Pastoral Provision. Issued by Pope John Paul II, the Pastoral Provision permits Anglican clergy to convert to Catholicism while retaining their spouse. [/quote]
I've seen that Church on the Internet - Unfortunatly I wouldn't like to go to an Anglican Rite Mass because I'm used to the Novus Ordo Pauline Mass (The current Roman Catholic Mass) and I would probably be more of a charismatic catholic.
I also run a praise band at my AC Church which is going rather well.
Have you ever been to the REAL Walsingham in Norfolk here in the UK? I go every year to the Anglican Walsingham Youth Pilgramage - if you want Catholic within the Anglican Church - that's the one you want!

[url="http://www.cjmmusic.fsnet.co.uk/news/news-walsingham-pics.htm"]Walsingham Photos[/url]

I totally agree that the Anglican Church has too many branches, which is one of the reasons that I feel I cannot stay in it for much longer (but I can't yet due to certain circumstances)
One day... one day!

-sortacatholic (but still not quite)

[MagiDragon]

Be *very* careful with the words 'irrational' and 'wacko.' If one takes a cursory glance at Catholicism, we are a very irrational, 'wacko' group.

From the outside transubstantiation is no less ridiculous than consubstantiation.

It's only after some serious study that one can find that Catholicism *is* rational.

Peace,
Joe

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 24 2004, 12:48 AM'] I have a question....

The one really big thing I just do not understand about Protestant chuches is why they do not have real presence....that is why don't they believe in transubstantiation? The Orthodox believe, and from my research it was what the early church taught and furthur more it is right in the Bible, Jesus said "this is my body"
It was not a simile or a metaphor, there was no like or as in there.

I really want to know why the Protestants abandoned this teaching.
It perplexes me, I really want to know. [/quote]
We didn't abandon the teaching about [i]real presence[/i], we abandoned transubstantiation. The only Protestant reformer (and I use the term loosely for this man) who denied that Christ was in some way, shape, or form, present in the Eucharist was Huldreich Zwingli - and he was met with stiff theological resistance from both Martin Luther and John Calvin.

[Balthazor]

What I was asking was why you abandoned transubstantiation.
Why did you guys abandon transubstantiation?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 28 2004, 03:20 PM'] What I was asking was why you abandoned transubstantiation.
Why did you guys abandon transubstantiation? [/quote]
To quote the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England,

To see the entirety of the Westminster Confession on the subject of the Lord's Supper go [url="http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XXIX.html"]here[/url]

[quote name='The WCF']VI. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense, and reason; overthrows the nature of the sacrament, and has been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions; yes, of gross idolatries.[12][/quote]

[quote name='The 39 Articles']The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the mutual love that Christians ought to have among themselves. Rather, it is a sacrament of our redemption through Christ's death. To those who rightly, worthily, and with faith receive it, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ, and similarly the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ. Transubstantiation (the change of the substance of the bread and wine)[b] in the Supper of the Lord cannot be proved from holy Scripture, but is repugnant to the plain teaching of Scripture. It overthrows the nature of a sacrament and has given rise to many superstitions. [/b]The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper only in a heavenly and spiritual manner. The means by which the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is by faith.[/quote]

Edited November 28, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Balthazor]

Thank you Ichthus that is all I really wanted to know. I was just curious.