Is this you?

[StColette]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:37 AM']
BACK to Mary, because personally I think pointing out babies and mentally disabled are a cheap attempt at exceptions, no offence to the proponent of the argument . [/quote]
no problem deary

[Guest]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:32 AM'] no, God made two exceptions, one Christ by His own merits, the other Mary by Christ's merits, neither of which lived in Rome when Paul wrote that. [/quote]
woulnt have paul know'n though if she was sinless ??
therefore adding her name along with Christ Jesus
since he said "there is no distinction, all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God " ???????




and dont get me wrong
I try to pray to mary every night
im just debateing here
i love mary very much so

[Catalyst]

no...no where in the bible does it state that.

Christs merits, infused in her??? Oh man...yeah God can do anything but He has to keep good on His promises.

Why would God go through thousands of years of old testament law if He could just make people perfect before the prphesy of the messiah and His tasks where fullfilled.

Saying that over looks why the whole old testament told of Jesus' comming.

Mary was born into sin and therefor a sinner, and this doctrine is the doctrine that you get from your priests. None of it is biblical..infused????? I'm going to bed, I talk to you all tomarrow and God bless, and i pray you get a revelation of Gods love for you and His will for all man in Jesus name, Amen.

another thing.....

The Sacrifice of the Mass
A Catholic mass is by definition the sacrifice of Christ (Catechism 1322, 1338). The Baltimore Catechism (Confraternity Edition of 1949) says, "Christ gives us His own body and blood in the holy Eucharist first, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorating and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross" (Catechism 356).

While the Catholic catechisms quote the passages that speak of Christ dying once, they also teach that the priest miraculously transforms the bread and wine into Christ's real body, and that Jesus is then sacrificed anew. "The blood is real blood (it looks like wine and tastes like wine at Mass, but it is truly the Blood of Christ."[1]

Although there is some variation among Protestants on the meaning of the Lord's supper, without exception biblical Protestants teach that the sacrament is not a renewal or a revisitation of the bodily sacrifice of Christ. Rather it is a remembrance and a memorial use of symbols blessed by God to the benefit of the humbled believer.

This contrast is far more than a controversy of words. It goes to the very heart of the difference between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity. Protestant faith denies that the church has the power to perform the mass's "miracle of transubstantiation," and it further denies that the Lord's Supper's purpose is to see accomplished the death of Christ all over again.


"Nor did He [Jesus Christ] enter heaven to offer himself again and again..."
-Hebrews 9:25 (NIV) (see Hebrews 9:25-10:18)

and another..
Confession of sins to a priest (a mediator between God and man) [see I Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" / I Peter 2:5 (speaking of all Christians being a priesthood)]

Prayers to dead saints (see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 - "Let no one be found among you who... who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...")

Offering of masses, prayers and rosaries for those who suffer in "purgatory" (see Hebrews 9:27 - "...Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.")

The Priestly System
The Old Testament clearly established a priesthood (the Levites) to serve Israel. This earthly priesthood was a symbol of the Messiah's eternal priesthood. The book of Hebrews explains its purpose and fulfillment. Historic Protestantism, because of its study of the Scriptures, proclaimed the "universal priesthood of all believers." The special office of priest was fulfilled in our Savior, and thus came to an end in Him.

Although Catholicism acknowledges this universal priesthood, it sustains a "weak and beggarly element" of the old covenant and assigns to its priests remarkable power as pastors of the church. This system is essential to the power of the Catholic Church and cannot be justified by the Bible.

One of the finest scholars of Roman Catholic Scripture, Raymond E. Brown, shocked Catholics when he discovered that:


When we move from the Old Testament to the New Testament, it is striking that while there are pagan priests and Jewish priests on the scene, no individual Christian is ever specifically identified as a priest. The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of the high priesthood of Jesus by comparing his death and entry into heaven with the actions of the Jewish high priest who went into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle once a year with a offering for himself and for the sins of his people (Hebrews 9:6-7).
But it is noteworthy that the author of Hebrews does not associate the priesthood of Jesus with the Eucharist or the Last Supper; neither does he suggest that other Christians are priests in the likeness of Jesus. In fact, the once-for-all atmosphere that surrounds the priesthood of Jesus in Hebrews 10:12-14, has been offered as an explanation of why there are no Christian priests in the New Testament period.[1]


Biblical Protestantism repudiates the Catholic priesthood system, and would consider its proposed imposition a radical violation of its conscience before God

[Guest Aluigi]

Delivery Boy, you have a good heart from what I can tell. it's about what Paul was intending to say. Paul was telling the Christians in Rome, don't fool yourself you've all sinned. He didn't use the subject "YOU" rather "ALL" because it was a figure of speech. kinda like "all of you". his inspired words apply to all mankind, all it is adressed to (originally only the Christians in Rome, but by God's will the entire Bible is adressed to all mankind. it was not adressed to Mary.)

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

Catalyst, you failed to adress my supplemental argument which was also brought up by the first Christian readers of the Bible, that waiting thousands of years this was to be the big action, a complete reversal of Adam and Eve's actions. Mary reverses Eve's actions, Jesus reverses Adam's actions (Paul even refers to Him as the New Adam, Mary is not refered to as the New Eve in scripture but that is how her actions are interpretted by the Early Church)

you should stay on topic, which is why though I could, I'm not going to adress your last argument unless you post it in another thread so we can stay on topic here, as we have gotten into a very compelling argument about Mary

[Guest Aluigi]

seeing as I've based my argument on this, i feel i should provide evidence.

the term in question, translated by St. Jerome as "full of grace" and by modern translators as "highly favored one" is this:
ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ

greekbible.com says this is from the root ΧΑΡΙΤΟΩ, a verb meaning {khar-ee-to'-o}
1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ is a perfect passive participle of that verb.
"The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action: " according to the Greek grammarian Gresham Machen. Examples of the perfect past participle:
[quote]The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ("it is written"). Literally translated, "It has been written in the past and is still in force." Hence, Jesus expresses the Continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense. The perfect tense is also found Matthew 16:19 ("…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"). "Shall be bound in heaven" is a perfect passive participle (The Analytical Greek lexicon. Pg85). Jesus is telling Peter that what he (Peter) bound would have already been bound in heaven.[/quote]
This quote is from [url="http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm"]http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm[/url] Notice, ironically, the very next sentence says Peter was not the first pope ...yeah, that's right, i'm not afraid to use Protestant Bible Scholars if they can provide insight into the scriptures. however, short refutation: we never said the pope can add something that wasn't already true in heaven. let's not debate this point, though, but stay on the Mary thing.

Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.

If, as I believe I saw you concede to agree with me on, at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God. the best explanation is that of the Early Church Fathers, that she supplementally fulfills the reversal of the event of original sin by being the New Eve to Christ's New Adam. here's the clincher (it will only clinch it if you admit everything so far, up to the admittance that the Early Church was correct in labeling Mary the New Eve), at least in my opinion, for why Christ's merits were infused to her that she would be sinless at the moment of her creation.

The person of Eve was created out of the person of Adam who was created out of the earth.
The person of Mary was sinless of of the sinlessness of the person of Adam who came from Heaven.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:51 AM'] Delivery Boy, you have a good heart from what I can tell.  it's about what Paul was intending to say.  Paul was telling the Christians in Rome, don't fool yourself you've all sinned.  He didn't use the subject "YOU" rather "ALL" because it was a figure of speech.  kinda like "all of you".  his inspired words apply to all mankind, all it is adressed to (originally only the Christians in Rome, but by God's will the entire Bible is adressed to all mankind. it was not adressed to Mary.) [/quote]

romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and [color=red]thus death came to all[/color], [color=red]inasmuch as all sinned[/color]......

so isnt he refering to more then just the christians in rome here ?

romans 6:15
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all.

so wouldnt condemnation include mary also ?

Edited November 26, 2004 by Guest

[Catalyst]

if it doesn't line up with scripture its not true. plain and simple.

Mary did die and sin is the cause of death.

Mary does fall under that aswell, my topic is showing you false doctrine so you can focus on the way the truth and the life and see revival, and healing in your town through the demonstration of gods power that is not limited to the disciples who followed Christ.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Catalyst

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 02:30 AM']actually, it is quite likely that she did die.  see my explanation above.  Catholics are free to believe either that she did die or she didn't, but earliest Christian tradition says she did die, then was raised and assumed.  Some say 3 days, some say this specific number of days i think a little less than 206 (don't know where it came from) but they all say she died, then was raised and assumed body and soul into heaven.  these are in writings the Church declared non-canonical, not inspired by God.  but they are still writings of early Christians giving insight into what they believed.[/quote]
I have to disagree we just went over this in RCIA. The earliest teaching is that she "fell asleep," hense the name for the Byzantine Feast of the Dormition. Death is the penalty of sin, and along with death comes decay unless there is miraculous incorruptablility. I'm also assuming that a dead body, whether rotting or miraculously incorrupt, is still a vessel no longer containing a soul. In the Dogma of the Assumption, which Catholics must believe, states she was assumed together body and soul.

In regards to the beliefs of some early Christians, Pius XII address here the truth the Church teaches:

[quote]30. When, during the Middle Ages, scholastic theology was especially flourishing, St. Albert the Great who, to establish this teaching, had gathered together many proofs from Sacred Scripture, from the statements of older writers, and finally from the liturgy and from what is known as theological reasoning, concluded in this way: "From these proofs and authorities and from many others, it is manifest that the most blessed Mother of God has been assumed above the choirs of angels. And this we believe in every way to be true."(29) And, in a sermon which he delivered on the sacred day of the Blessed Virgin Mary's annunciation, explained the words "Hail, full of grace"-words used by the angel who addressed her-the Universal Doctor, comparing the Blessed Virgin with Eve, stated clearly and incisively that she was exempted from the fourfold curse that had been laid upon Eve.(30)

31. Following the footsteps of his distinguished teacher, the Angelic Doctor, despite the fact that he never dealt directly with this question, nevertheless, whenever he touched upon it, always held together with the Catholic Church, that Mary's body had been assumed into heaven along with her soul.(31)[/quote]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html"]MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS[/url]

Pax Christi.

[Guest Aluigi]

at the end of her earthly life. end of life could be death. i don't believe we need make this a point of contention with Catalyst, the Dogma allows either that she was assumed without ever dying or that she was assumed after death.

Catalyst, Jesus was sinless. Jesus died. Your analysis demands that Jesus, even when nailed to a cross, would have survived. Because you are saying that Mary, even though she was either persecuted and martyred by Romans, or came to old age and died on her own, should have survived if she were sinless. Not the case, because the two sinless people were perfectly sinless but submitted to the punishment accorded to Adam, going through the process in order to reverse it.

If your interpretation were correct, everyone who was reborn in Christ out of original sin would never die. true in the same sense Mary never died, but not in the sense that we all physically die (we just live eternally in heaven)

[M.SIGGA]

ah never mind lol. i misread your post. it's late.

if it isn't too much trouble though, I wouldn't mind seeing where the Church says it's ok to believe she actually "died" because I've never been introduced to this concept before. I was taught that as a totally sinless vessel she "fell asleep" until being assumed when her life ended. Maybe it's a fault of the English language, but the word "death" has a coorelation with "the wages of sin." I think this would provide some clarity of Catholic teaching for Catalyst too.

Thanks. Pax Christi. Edited November 26, 2004 by M.SIGGA

[Guest Aluigi]

Delivery Boy, this is a good point. I guess my post came across too much as it only applies to the Roman Christians. not what I intended, it applies to all mankined (with two exceptions, Jesus who was true man <and True God> and Mary who was a true woman). They were exempted in order to reverse the sin of Adam through their obedience.

by no means does this mean that Christ couldn't have done it on His own. He can and He did, but supplemental factors of mankind interacting and cooperating with the plan was the Will of God to make this a re-test, so to speak, as Adam and Eve were subjected to temptation (test) and failed, Mary and Jesus were subjected to temptation (test) and passed with flying colors, Jesus defeating death by sinlessly shedding His Blood and Mary supplementally obediently suffering by the side of the cross and all the time saying "fiat voluntas tua'"- "be done your will", in contrast to Eve's saying "fiat voluntias mia"- "be done my will" (her will was to eat the forbidden fruit)

[Guest]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:50 AM']

Prayers to dead saints (see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 - "Let no one be found among you who... who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...")


[/quote]
mary is liveing though
and regardless if she sinned or she didnt sin
she gave birth to Jesus Christ
so yaa
that says it all
so all love to the virgin mother
forever and always -_-

Edited November 26, 2004 by Guest

[Guest Aluigi]

For Catalyst: concise crystalized summary of my argument that I want you to adress (basically my last post to you with a few modifications):

Premise: The Angel Gabriel's words to Mary indicate Mary never commited sin

The Gospel according to St. Luke, Chapter I, Verse xxviii says:
ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

the term in question, translated by St. Jerome as "full of grace" and by modern translators as "highly favored one" is this:
ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ

greekbible.com says this is from the root ΧΑΡΙΤΟΩ {khar-ee-to'-o}, a verb meaning:
1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ is a perfect passive participle of that verb.
"The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action: " according to the Greek grammarian Gresham Machen. Examples of the perfect past participle:
[quote]The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ("it is written"). Literally translated, "It has been written in the past and is still in force." Hence, Jesus expresses the Continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense. The perfect tense is also found Matthew 16:19 ("…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"). "Shall be bound in heaven" is a perfect passive participle (The Analytical Greek lexicon. Pg85). Jesus is telling Peter that what he (Peter) bound would have already been bound in heaven.[/quote]
This quote is from [url="http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm"]http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm[/url] Notice, ironically, the very next sentence says Peter was not the first pope ...yeah, that's right, i'm not afraid to use Protestant Bible Scholars if they can provide insight into the scriptures. however, short refutation: we never said the pope can add something that wasn't already true in heaven. let's not debate this point, though, but stay on the Mary thing.

Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.

If, as I believe I saw you concede to agree with me on, at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God. the best explanation is that of the Early Church Fathers, that she supplementally fulfills the reversal of the event of original sin by being the New Eve to Christ's New Adam. here's the clincher (it will only clinch it if you admit everything so far, up to the admittance that the Early Church was correct in labeling Mary the New Eve), at least in my opinion, for why Christ's merits were infused to her that she would be sinless at the moment of her creation.

The person of Eve was created out of the person of Adam who was created out of the earth.
The person of Mary was sinless of of the sinlessness of the person of Adam who came from Heaven.

[Guest Aluigi]

Delivery Boy, thanks for pointing that out, cause I can debunk that, saints are not dead
The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew Chapter XXII Verses xxxi-xxxii
[quote] And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you: 32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.[/quote]

[Guest]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 04:31 AM'] Delivery Boy, thanks for pointing that out, cause I can debunk that, saints are not dead
The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew Chapter XXII Verses xxxi-xxxii
[/quote]
4'sho
God bless and goodnight

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:17 AM'] if it isn't too much trouble though, I wouldn't mind seeing where the Church says it's ok to believe she actually "died" because I've never been introduced to this concept before. I was taught that as a totally sinless vessel she "fell asleep" until being assumed when her life ended. Maybe it's a fault of the English language, but the word "death" has a coorelation with "the wages of sin." I think this would provide some clarity of Catholic teaching for Catalyst too.

Thanks. Pax Christi. [/quote]
Aluigi, I didn't know if you saw this question I added on. if you have time

[Guest Aluigi]

well, i explained earlier why Mary would die, Jesus died too. they were the New Adam and New Eve, and sinlessly underwent the punishment. Catholic Teaching, specifically the Dogma of the Assumption, doesn't necessarily say she didn't die. I got this all from a PM convo from a long time ago in a thread far far away. At the end of her life she was assumed into heaven. She might have died first, but was ressurected body and soul. anyway, yeah, this shouldn't be a point of contention here, many traditions say she fell asleep I assume, but others say she died, The Discourse of Theodosius in [i]The Dormition of the Virgin[/i] specifically has Jesus saying "There are 206 days from her death unto her holy assumption. I will bring unto you arrayed in this body"

The body was dead and 206 days later the soul was reunited with it according to this text. perhaps this is where the translation is off? anyway, this Dormition discourse says that the body was "placed in the stone coffin and watched, and in 206 days he [Jesus] would bring the soul to it." This is of course tradition, the Dogma simply says at the end of her life she was assumed into heaven.

[conservativecatholic]

The only verse in the whole Bible in which the words "faith" and "alone" are both to be found, is in James 2:24, and it says "NOT" by faith alone. By the way, it is for this reason, that James was one of several New Testament books which Luther wanted to remove from the Bible. The book of James, along with other Biblical books, proved to be a great embarassment to him, since it was blatantly opposed to his teaching.

Luther wrote regarding the Book of James:

"...the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical." Luther's "Preface to the New Testament".

Luther also wrote against the Book of Revelation:

"...to my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character... Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it."
Sammtliche Werke, 63, pp. 169-170

Heretical Martin Luther also removed seven books from the Old Testament which had been in the Bible for over 1100 years. He did this simply because the books did not agree with his false teaching.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 04:29 AM'] For Catalyst: concise crystalized summary of my argument that I want you to adress (basically my last post to you with a few modifications):

Premise: The Angel Gabriel's words to Mary indicate Mary never commited sin

The Gospel according to St. Luke, Chapter I, Verse xxviii says:
ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

the term in question, translated by St. Jerome as "full of grace" and by modern translators as "highly favored one" is this:
ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ

greekbible.com says this is from the root ΧΑΡΙΤΟΩ {khar-ee-to'-o}, a verb meaning:
1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ is a perfect passive participle of that verb.
"The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action: " according to the Greek grammarian Gresham Machen. Examples of the perfect past participle:
[quote]The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ("it is written"). Literally translated, "It has been written in the past and is still in force." Hence, Jesus expresses the Continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense. The perfect tense is also found Matthew 16:19 ("…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"). "Shall be bound in heaven" is a perfect passive participle (The Analytical Greek lexicon. Pg85). Jesus is telling Peter that what he (Peter) bound would have already been bound in heaven.[/quote]

This quote is from [url="http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm"]http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm[/url] Notice, ironically, the very next sentence says Peter was not the first pope ...yeah, that's right, i'm not afraid to use Protestant Bible Scholars if they can provide insight into the scriptures. however, short refutation: we never said the pope can add something that wasn't already true in heaven. let's not debate this point, though, but stay on the Mary thing.

Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.

If, as I believe I saw you concede to agree with me on, at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God. the best explanation is that of the Early Church Fathers, that she supplementally fulfills the reversal of the event of original sin by being the New Eve to Christ's New Adam. here's the clincher (it will only clinch it if you admit everything so far, up to the admittance that the Early Church was correct in labeling Mary the New Eve), at least in my opinion, for why Christ's merits were infused to her that she would be sinless at the moment of her creation.

The person of Eve was created out of the person of Adam who was created out of the earth.
The person of Mary was sinless of of the sinlessness of the person of Adam who came from Heaven. [/quote]
I really want to deal with this one point at a time, and we were getting really into whether Mary was sinless, so i'd like to continue that. this post contains my entire argument as far as I have expanded on it so far in regards to Mary's sinlessness.

if possible, i would like this specific topic to be dealt with first before the other points, so we can go through this topic by topic and stay focsed. Put responses to the arguments on other topics (as you've made this thread to be a plethora of topics) after you respond to this.

-pax-