Latin Mass

[Azriel]

Anybody else think Todd is just awesome?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote]The use of the latin editio typica tertia of the Roman Missal of Paul VI requires no special permission because, as I indicated above, it is the official text from which all the vernacular translations must be made.[/quote]
I believe this only became an explicit directive from the Vatican recently. Before then (and maybe even still), I believe that some bishops felt they could demand that a priest not use Latin in the Paul VI rite. On the other side, I have heard of lay groups at liberal parishes trying to bully priests into not using Latin.

My memory is a bit fuzzy, though. Regarding the celebration of mass in Latin without a special permission: does anyone remember whether this Vatican Statement (maybe from Cardinal Arinze?) applied to the Tridentine (Indult) or the Paul VI Missal or both? I think it's just the Pauline rite.

Thanks!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Nov 27 2004, 08:00 PM'] I believe this only became an explicit directive from the Vatican recently.  Before then (and maybe even still), I believe that some bishops felt they could demand that a priest not use Latin in the Paul VI rite.  On the other side, I have heard of lay groups at liberal parishes trying to bully priests into not using Latin.

My memory is a bit fuzzy, though.  Regarding the celebration of mass in Latin without a special permission: does anyone remember whether this Vatican Statement (maybe from Cardinal Arinze?) applied to the Tridentine (Indult) or the Paul VI Missal or both?  I think it's just the Pauline rite.

Thanks! [/quote]
No, the Latin language is still the official language of the Roman Rite and so there is no special indult necessary in order for a priest to celebrate Mass according to the 1970 Pauline Missal in latin. Now whether or not it is prudent to pray the entire liturgy in latin when the majority of Roman Rite Catholics do not know the latin language is another matter altogether. The latin editio typica tertia is the normative text for the Mass in the Roman Rite and can be used at any time. The normative nature of the latin language was reaffirmed by the Congregation for Divine Worship in the instruction [u]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/u], but that particular instruction did not institute any new liturgical laws; instead, it simply reaffirmed the existing liturgical legislation of the Roman Rite.

As far as the indult Mass is concerned, because of the nature of the indult given by Pope John Paul II in the Motu Proprio [u]Ecclesia Dei[/u], it is necessary for the local Ordinary to approve of any celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal, and without the Bishop's approval, that missal cannot be used licitly.

God bless,
Todd

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 27 2004, 01:19 AM'] Without a sacramental view of the Church, you will not understand it. [/quote]
Explain

[popestpiusx]

Todd, you misunderstood my question (no doubt due to my poor phrasing). But you did clarify the statement. It seemed to me that you were implying two contradictory statements: One, that the use of the vernacular is binding, unless one recieves an indult; and two, that no priest needs permission to use latin.

Thank You for the clarification.

Edited November 28, 2004 by popestpiusx

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Nov 28 2004, 12:06 AM']

As far as the indult Mass is concerned, because of the nature of the indult given by Pope John Paul II in the Motu Proprio [u]Ecclesia Dei[/u], it is necessary for the local Ordinary to approve of any celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal, and without the Bishop's approval, that missal cannot be used licitly.

[/quote]
Permission from the local ordinary is only required for public celebrations of the Mass. THere are other arrangements set up that permit a priest to say the Mass privately (which does not mean that no one may attend).

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 12:35 AM'] Explain [/quote]
With a sacramental view of the Church you would understand (or acknowledge) that what takes place at Mass does not depend upon you understanding every word spoken, nor does the grace you recieve. The Sacrifice of the Mass takes place with or with anyone in the Church understanding a single word that is spoken.

That's the very short, very watered down version.

[Mateo el Feo]

Personally, I go to a Pauline mass, either in an English/Latin mix or English. I love my parish priests! Their masses are always edifying.

<Rant>
I am not a big fan of illicit use of the Tridentine mass. That said, I'm quite concerned when I look at the other end of the spectrum. For example, things like the New Agey liturgical dance and a whole host of novelties. Some bishops are either explicitly or tacitly approving these novelties, and continue to do so after the Vatican demands that such practices be stopped.

So, the Vatican states that the indult's availability should be "wide and generous." And the Vatican has repeatedly condemned and tried to surpress liturgical abuses.

As a contrast: in America, some bishops have made the abuses (illicit liturgical innovations) wide and generous. I have to admit that my own personal opinion is that the bishops are not being "generous" in their allowance for Indults, and may even treat those who want the indult as "red-headed step-children" (so to speak).

I guess I wouldn't have such a problem with the apparent suppression of the indult if the American bishops were as inspired to suppress other things. For example, I would love to see a USSCB that would provide a strong front against illicit changes to the Pauline mass, not to mention more bishops who were willing to discipline (remove from ministry) priests/religious/lay employees who use their position in the Church (paid by the Church) to propogate false teachings that go against the Church.

I think this stuff is relevant just to put all this stuff in perspective.
</Rant>

[qfnol31]

If I were to become a Priest, I would say the Tridentine Mass quite often. I'd say the Novus Ordo facing the correct way too. Wouldn't mind the Latin Novus Ordo either.

[Guest Aluigi]

yes, i would say a priest's private Latin mass is okay. what this means is that it cannot be scheduled or advertized. it must be the priest's private mass, not publically announced, the general public cannot be invited.

unless this contradicts the Pope's statement. I am reminded of the comment, though it could be interpreted as the latin pauline mass, from Redemptionis Sacromentem reiterating a priest is always and every permitted to say Latin Mass. the indult is required to do so at a scheduled time announced to the public. but if me and some friends asked a priest to say mass for us (as i was quite pleased to learn is not an odd thing to do at St. Vincent's where they have a ton of priests who all have to say mass everyday anyway) we could ask him to use the Tridentine order of the mass if i'm not mistaken.

[sortacatholic]

In britain special permission doesn't have to be obtained from the diocesan bishop to celebrate Latin Mass, but it is not allowed to be the main service on a sunday - a novus ordo mass must be celebrated as the main parish mass on a sunday.

Also certain religious orders in the RC Church may follow their own liturgies (in Latin) for mass, rather than use the novus ordo.

-sortacatholic (but not quite)

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 28 2004, 12:08 AM'] With a sacramental view of the Church you would understand (or acknowledge) that what takes place at Mass does not depend upon you understanding every word spoken, nor does the grace you recieve. The Sacrifice of the Mass takes place with or with anyone in the Church understanding a single word that is spoken.

That's the very short, very watered down version. [/quote]
Ah, I see.

Well, I would correct you, actually. I would need to have an [i]ex opere operato[/i] sacramental view of the Church. The purpose of the Divine Service, as well as for the dispensation of the Sacraments, is for the edification of the Saints - I hardly think that the Saints are edified by the minister babbling in a tongue unknown to them.

I actually didn't intend this to be a Catholic Church vs. Catholic Church debate. I wanted to ask a question... *sigh*

Edited November 28, 2004 by ICTHUS

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 01:48 PM']The purpose of the Divine Service, as well as for the dispensation of the Sacraments, is for the edification of the Saints - I hardly think that the Saints are edified by the minister babbling in a tongue unknown to them.[/quote]
It is not only for the intellectual edification, but also for the [i]spiritual[/i] edification of the faithful. You recieve the same spiritual graces regardless of whether you understand the language. Therefore, edification is still achieved regardless of language.

when it comes to the intellectual edification of the faithful, i tend to agree that it's good to speak the language of the people. On the other hand, i think more people understood latin than could speak it, so it wouldn't really be 'babbling,' even if they weren't fluent.

Peace,
Joe

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Nov 28 2004, 02:09 PM'] when it comes to the intellectual edification of the faithful, i tend to agree that it's good to speak the language of the people. On the other hand, i think more people understood latin than could speak it, so it wouldn't really be 'babbling,' even if they weren't fluent.
[/quote]
I perhaps see your point - I understand spoken and written French better than I myself can speak and write it. Is this something like what you're describing?

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 02:59 PM']I perhaps see your point - I understand spoken and written French better than I myself can speak and write it. Is this something like what you're describing?[/quote]
'tis [i]exactly[/i] what i'm describing.

[Socrates]

Latin was the "universal language" of Western Christendom for many centuries, including long after Luther. This continued into the nineteenth century in scientific use, in which scientific reports, etc. were written in Latin to be understood by scientists from many different countries. The scientific names of different species are still in Latin (or Greek).

Having an official translation in a "universal language" for the whole Latin Rite is easier than trying to make good, accurate translations into a multitude of languages. (There are still some serious problems with the English translations.)

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 02:48 PM']
The purpose of the Divine Service, as well as for the dispensation of the Sacraments, is for the edification of the Saints - I hardly think that the Saints are edified by the minister babbling in a tongue unknown to them.

[/quote]
You would have to define "edification". Also, he is not babbeling in an unknown tongue TO THEM. The prayers are TO GOD, not to man. And I am quite certain God understands Latin. The Graces of the sacrament are obtained by the priest, acting in persona Christi, for the people. It does not matter one iota if they can translate word for word what he is saying. They know what he is doing.

Edited November 29, 2004 by popestpiusx

[MagiDragon]

umm . . . i think i said that . . . several hours ago . . . *scratches head*

did i fail to understand part of your statement? or maybe all of your statement? I can be pretty dense sometimes . . .

[popestpiusx]

Did I repeat what you posted? So very sorry. I was just skimming the thread.

NOTE TO ALL: IGNORE MY POST!

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 28 2004, 10:54 PM'] Did I repeat what you posted? [/quote]
i dunno for certain, but i *think* you said the same thing. I was just trying to figure out what you said that was new and i couldn't find anything. *shrugs*

if you don't see anything, and i don't see anything, i guess there wasn't anything to be seen . . .

Peace,
Joe