littleflower+JMJ Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 i came across this article....it has ALOT of wrong in it but the main thing i needed to ask was what actuallly did the word "PETROS" mean....the cooco says it was a pebble, a small segment of rock and then claims that since Jesus uses the word petra, it just means a Mass of rock...what exactly is the correct meaning? for peter's name..in Mat 16:18-19...i know it means firm, stable, a strong foundation....so why do they say it "is only a pebble?" ============= "Let?s return to the words of Jesus to Peter in Matt. 16:18?19 briefly: ?And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church.? The controversy that surrounds the foundation upon which Jesus built His church focuses on the Greek words that have been translated into the English as Peter and rock. Both words, in the original language, mean rock. Therefore, the Catholic position is that Peter is the rock upon which Christ built his church. That is, they conclude that Jesus was confessing, And I say unto you, you are Peter and upon YOU I will build my church. However, this is being dishonest with the words of Jesus. The words Jesus used, both do mean rock, but they are as different as they can be. First Jesus said you are Peter, and the word Jesus used that is translated Peter is petros. This word means a piece of rock ? that is, a pebble, a small segment of rock. Furthermore, the Lord uses a word that is in the masculine gender. He is saying to Peter, ?You are a petros ? a small piece of rock, a pebble.? The Lord then says, after identifying Peter as a small piece of rock, a pebble; that upon this rock I will build my church. Now if the Lord was building His church upon Peter, we will find Him saying upon this petros (small shifting pebble) I will build my church. That is not what Jesus says at all. Instead, the Lord uses the word petra. This word is feminine in its gender ? and instead of meaning a small piece of rock, it means a mass of rock. Jesus is not building His church upon a small shifting pebble like Peter. " ================== the whole article is on the web...but its full of alot of ANTI-catholic bologny!! can i call up all arms of the catholic militant (sp?) ironmonk....likos...HELP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 It was in Aramaic when it was said. Cephas, not Petros. Why use Petros and not Petra in the translation? The same reason my parents didn't name me "Sue". Masculine vs. feminine. Cephas, Cephas, Cephas. Say it with them until their heads explode or they learn something. There's even more to trash this vapid argument. If I had an army, I'd charge them to take away almost everyone's ancient-greek to modern english dictionaries. Part of translating texts is knowing the culture, not just having words to change out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 (edited) Remember, Greek is the first translation. The Apostles spoke Aramaic. And if anyone doubts you... John 1:42 Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter). The argument that Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock is wrong. There is only one meaning for Kephas (Cephas), and that is Rock. The only way for a non-Catholic view of scripture to work is if you ignore other parts... It feels so good to be in the truth. Ever notice how anti-Catholics change the subject when they can't answer you. So far, out of the hundreds of dialogs that I've been in the past 3 years, I have always been able to find an answer from the Catholic Church about what the anti-Catholic brought up. Be sure to check out the gold mines of information: http://www.Catholic.com/library.asp http://www.TCLD.net http://www.Catholic-Pages.com http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Edited July 10, 2003 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 The big question is why would Paul call him by the name Cephas (which means rock) if Jesus gave him the nickname pebble? It doesn't make sense. Also it is a big deal in the Bible when God changes someone's name. It means that he is going to have a new leadership role. Also there is no record of anyone going by the name rock before Jesus gave peter this name. It would be like having the name chair. Very peculiar and it only makes since if it points to what God is going to do through him. I recommend the following link. 50 NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND THE PAPACY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 In the Protestant Revised Standard Version of the Bible, you will find the following footnote to Matthew 16:18-19: "The Greek text involves a play on two words, Petros ('Peter') and petra ('rock'). Palestinian Aramaic, which Jesus usually spoke, used the same word for both proper name and common noun. 'You are Kepha (Cephas; compare 1 Cor. 15:5, Gal. 2:9) and on this kepha (rock) I will build . . ." The keys of the kingdom are a symbol of Peter's power as the leader of the church." The actual words of Jesus (in Aramaic) to Simon were: You are Rock (Kepha) and on this rock (kepha) I will build my church . . . Jesus changed Simon's name to Rock (in Greek, Petros or Kepha) then he stated His intention to build His Church on that very rock (petra or kepha). He then proceeded to do just that. He commands Peter, "Feed my lambs, tend my sheep" (John 21:15-19), and leaves him in charge of the Sheepfold (the Church). Like some other langauges (Spanish, for example), Koine Greek had masculine and feminine nouns. It would have been grammatically incorrect to write: 'You are Petros (masculine name meaning Rock; English, Peter; French, Pierre; Spanish, Pedro) and on this petros (rock) I will build my church.' Matthew, writing in Greek, correctly used Petros for the masculine name, Rock, and and the feminine form of the same word, petra for the feminine object, rock. Jesus wasn't talking about big rocks and little pebbles. He wasn't even speaking Greek! Look also at John 1:42 and you will see that Peter's name was changed to Cephas; this indicates that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, since Kepha or Cephas is a transliteration of the name from Aramaic to Greek. As is always the case, this is a Protestant error brought about by ignorance of all the facts, and a misunderstanding of the Scriptures due to private interpretation. Pray for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 En français, "Tu es Pierre, et sur cette pierre je bâtirai mon Église." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Remember where they were at the time. They were walking near a pagan town that had a big rock cliff behind it topped by a pagan temple. Below the cliff is a deep hole that was reputed to be a bottomless pit - one of the gates of the underworld (sheol). With this background in mind, think of Jesus saying "you are Peter and upon this rock (sweeping gesture) I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Pebble just doesn't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 The New Testament was written in Koine Greek Here is the original koine text of Matt 16v18 Some Protestants say Jesus called Peter a small rock or pebble. This is not possible. The Original text calls him Rock or Massive Stone. "kagw de soi legw oti su ei petros kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin auths" If Jesus wanted to call Peter "small rock or pebble" it would've been like this: "kagw de soi legw oti su ei lithos kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin auths" Petros or Petra mean rock, one is just masculine and the other feminine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 The New Testament was written in Koine Greek Here is the original koine text of Matt 16v18 Some Protestants say Jesus called Peter a small rock or pebble. This is not possible. The Original text calls him Rock or Massive Stone. "kagw de soi legw oti su ei petros kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin auths" If Jesus wanted to call Peter "small rock or pebble" it would've been like this: "kagw de soi legw oti su ei lithos kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin auths" Petros or Petra mean rock, one is just masculine and the other feminine. Matthew was written in Aramaic, then translated into Greek later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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