True Gentlemen

[White Knight]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 2 2004, 06:49 PM'] Well yes I think the longsword is superior to the rapier, I agree with George Silver and think the cut is superior to the thrust( not that thrust arn't important in most swordplay even with cutting swords) but really I believe that the application is important in a skirmish with light armour I think the cut and thrust sword with a buckler is about as deadly a combination as you can get, for heavier armoured combat including full scale battles I would choose a longsword over a sword and shield of cut and thrust but not perhaps over a spear and shield( spears are nasty weapons) I find accurate Medieval shields quite cumbersome to move at an appropriate speed, they more than any other weapon I have come across( and yes the shield is a weapon not armour) I believe requires [b][i]years[/i][/b] of training, i understand why training forthe knight started so early. I guess the best way to answer your question would be this, if I had to fight to the death and had no knowledge of what weapon my opponant was bringing there is no weapon I would hesitate to face with a good 48" longsword. Of course cut and thrust and buckler almost falls in that range as well. [/quote]
Actually, yes the weapon does matter at times, but skill is another issue and it matters more than what weapon you have... if you have a Rapier Master, with his weapon, against only an adverge skilled Broadsword fighter, most likely the rapier master is going to prevail.

[Don John of Austria]

Well broadsword is a 19th century term for several differant kind of swords so I can't really speak directly about that analogy but your analysis is in general not correct differant weapons are made for differant purposes, the greatest rapier men in the word wouldn't defeat and average or even below average man in full plate armour, they disigned weapons specificly to deal with that like the [i]estoc[/i] like wise an estoc would be extremly in effecent agianst a cut and thrust man or a good rapier man. The capabilities of weapons give them edges in certian ways, one on one an average spearmen is going to defeat a good swordsman more times than not, beccause the spear is a weapon which is extremely fast and lethal, it requires less skill to use agianst a sword that the sword does agianst it, likewise a sword has advantages in a general melee where you enemy may come from any direction and in large groups of disorganized combatants ( or origanized combatants on broken ground) the sword has a definant edge. A sword is useful agianst multiple opponants in a way a rapier is not, I can chop off s mans leg and continue my swing with sword but a rapier is not capable of such action, when one thrust it bmust be deep and that ties up your weapon. I could go on for a long time but differant weapons certianly have differant advantages, some weapons are simply better than others or better for differant things and a less skilled man with the right weapon can often defeat the more skilled opponant with an inferior weapon. That of course doesn't mean that skill is unimportant just that the weapon is very important as well.

[Don John of Austria]

bump because this is the most interesting thread on open mic.

[Dreamweaver]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 2 2004, 06:49 PM'] I find accurate Medieval shields quite cumbersome to move at an appropriate speed, they more than any other weapon I have come across( and yes the shield is a weapon not armour) I believe requires [b][i]years[/i][/b] of training, i understand why training forthe knight started so early. [/quote]
What country and timeframe are these shields from? Most medieval shields were made to be disposable. I've heard of viking and anglo saxon shields that were 4 feet in diameter, yet only 1/4" thick. They weren't that heavy, but definately weren't made to last.

I do agree that this thread is interesting. Medieval stuff, swords, yummy!

[Don John of Austria]

Try 3/4" or at least 1/2 an inch ( but really 3/4 is more like it) a 1/4" inch won't stop a serious blow and shields where much more complicated to make than most people realize, in my experiance a good historicly realistic round shield of about 2 and 1/2 to 3 ft in diameter wieghts about 10 lbs give or take and is very slow to ove about for those not use to it. That in no way negates there value, a trained man with lots of shield practice can stop blow after blow after blow, it can get really annoying.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 2 2004, 07:49 PM'] Well yes I think the longsword is superior to the rapier, I agree with George Silver and think the cut is superior to the thrust( not that thrust arn't important in most swordplay even with cutting swords) [/quote]
so you are saying that in a skirmish situation the longsword would be much better. I agree with that.
Now what about a duel? I have to say that in a duel a fencer would have a definite edge over a longswordsman. I suppose my style of combat is to wait til the other guy makes move, counter and then attack myself...so a quick thrust would in my mind dispatch a longsword easily.

[God Conquers]

I'm not so sure about that... your arm would probably be chopped off or your sword broken, unless you were much faster than the longswordsman and simply moved instead of parried, but then you are likely in a position of disadvantage.

[Don John of Austria]

I have done the longsword vs. rapier thing agianst rapier simulaters( by the way those hit really, reallly hard be careful with them) which handle more realisticly than say epees or schlager blades and usually I have won with the longsword, the rapier only has one attack it can thrust, thats it now it is bloody fast and following that point stinks but if you thrust at me and over commit you better connect or your going to die more than that evenif you thrust into me I can still probably kill you while you recover, George silver talks about this happening quite a bit in duels, a rapier will have a lot of trouble parrying a full blow from a long sword, in a duel, all other things being equal, Longsword vs rapier I'd go with the long sword 6 or 7 out of 10 times, cut and thrust with buckler Vs Longsword Cut and Thrust 6 or 7 out of 10 ( its still hard to parry la full swing but the style of cobmbat is more favorable to it) rapier vs cut and thrust all other things still being equal 50/ 50 these are really interesting fights they can be short but thaye can also be really long.

[Don John of Austria]

God conquers about moving instead of parrying always a good move-- in order of defensive moves move out of the way, deflect the blow, parry the blow.



really itss a rapier fighters legs that are so vulnerable, I have beaten the tar out of many many ex-sport fencer/ rapier fighters legs because of this problem with the style.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[toledo_jesus]

I would think that the same thing with overcommitment would apply to longswordsman as well. The rapier's main strength would be its speed, and the ability to not directly engage the blade. Rather, I would dance around the longsword til he got tired or made a mistake, then attempt an attack. I think that would be the only way to win, really. No way could a rapier effectively parry a longsword, even a thrust with a longsword. At best a beat, but even that wouldn't have much force against the larger blade. It would have to be about positioning and opportune strikes...guerilla dueling.

[Don John of Austria]

Oh no doubt that is the way; but if your fighting a smart long swordsman he isn't going to get tired, i sat in high guard for 15 minutes once just patiantly waiting for my opponant to come into range, longswords don't require a lot of feinting and such. Still I think the rapier is harder to learn but easier to master... does that make sense? meaning while it is not as natural a weapon and therefore takes more training it is easier to become really good with a rapier, this is where I think the edge of the rapier lies, it is why i think it took on such popularity. My experiance with different forms of fighting is that most people cannot adiquitly judge the striking distance of a weapon they arn't familiar with, swordsman are often completely suprised by the range of a rapiers thrust, likewise most people are suprised by the range of a longswords cut, especially one handed techniques.

Edited December 4, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[toledo_jesus]

I think I definitely need to learn the longsword.

[Don John of Austria]

yeah the longsword is cool.

[reelguy227]

Nothing beats a Japanese Katana

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='reelguy227' date='Dec 4 2004, 01:44 AM'] Nothing beats a Japanese Katana [/quote]
au contrair, mon ami.