Need Some Help

[Theologian in Training]

I am a little annoyed at the way in which this is being handled, but in my prophets class we were taught definitively that Is 7:14 is not a Messianic passage and rather refers to King Ahaz and his wife and the child to be born King Hezekiah.

Is there anywhere or anyone who gives a good reason for Is 7:14 to be a Messianic passage? The only thing I could find was something in a Navarre commentary in Matthew 1:23, where they referred to Pius VI "Divina" but I have absolutely no idea what that means.

Does anyone have anything at all...because you cannot understand my frustration and absolute disgust for both the historical critical and documentary hypothesis in light of this.

Anyone????

[qfnol31]

[quote]Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.[/quote]

I was taught that this verse actually has a dual meaning:
1) Literally about the king's son in the near future.
2) About Jesus' birth and His virginal birth.

The Catechism says this: [quote]497 The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The Church sees here the fulfilment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."150[/quote]

With footnotes:[quote]148 ⇒ Mt 1 18-25; ⇒ Lk 1:26-38.


149 ⇒ Mt 1:20.


150 Is 7:14 (LXX), quoted in Mt 1:23 (Greek).[/quote]

I can give you more sources later, when I have more time.

[phatcatholic]

these may help:

--Lumen gentium, para 55:[list]
[*]55. The Sacred Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament, as well as ancient Tradition show the role of the Mother of the Saviour in the economy of salvation in an ever clearer light and draw attention to it. The books of the Old Testament describe the history of salvation, by which the coming of Christ into the world was slowly prepared. These earliest documents, as they are read in the Church and are understood in the light of a further and full revelation, bring the figure of the woman, Mother of the Redeemer, into a gradually clearer light. When it is looked at in this way, she is already prophetically foreshadowed in the promise of victory over the serpent which was given to our first parents after their fall into sin.284 [b]Likewise she is the Virgin who shall conceive and bear a son, whose name will be called Emmanuel.285[/b] She stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from Him. With her the exalted Daughter of Sion, and after a long expectation of the promise, the times are fulfilled and the new Economy established, when the Son of God took a human nature from her, that He might in the mysteries of His flesh free man from sin.
[/list]
--PJII provides commentary on this verse in his [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP960131.HTM"][b]General Audience[/b][/url] on 31 January 1996

--Fr. William G. Most confronts the very issue you are facing in [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FR92203.TXT"][b]this article[/b][/url] (also see his commentary [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ISAIAH.TXT"][b]here[/b][/url])

--in Dialogue w/ Trypho, Justin begins in chapter 43 to defend why Jesus is the Emmanuel from Isaiah 7:14[list]
[*]"Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born [of a virgin], save this our Christ. But since you and your teachers venture to affirm that in the prophecy of Isaiah it is not said, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' but, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son;' and [since] you explain the prophecy as if [it referred] to Hezekiah, who was your king, I shall endeavor to [discuss shortly this point in opposition to you, and to show that reference is made to Him who is acknowledged by us as Christ."
[/list]
i can find more evidence if need me. the Church has always seen this passage as messianic in nature. i think that the most any catholic biblical exegete can say is that both interpretations are correct.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited December 3, 2004 by phatcatholic

[cmotherofpirl]

THeo I posted this to my other board, here is what I got so far:

from John:
Scott Hahn explains how Scripture has various levels of meanings. I
think it is called the quadriga (?). Each of the four meanings has its
own fancy name which escape me. For your question, the two that would
apply would be the ones that explains how a prophecy can have a lesser,
more immediate fulfillment and a later, greater fulfillment. Example:
the Passover lamb which saved the Israelites when they were in Egypt,
but also was fulfilled much greater when Christ became the Passover Lamb
par excellence. In his tape set on Revelation, Dr. Hahn explains how the
prophecies can be understood as having been fulfilled on one level 2000
years ago and yet we can also look forward to a greater fulfillment in
the future.

So, I would EXPECT that the prophecy in Isaiah was fulfilled in the days
of Isaiah or shortly thereafter. BUT I would also expect a later,
greater fulfillment, which in this case we know to be Christ.

from Carol:7 [14] The sign proposed by Isaiah was concerned with the
preservation of Judah in the midst of distress (cf Isaiah 7:15, 17),
but more especially with the fulfillment of God's earlier promise to
David (2 Sam 7:12-16) in the coming of Immanuel (meaning, "With us is
God") as the ideal king (cf Isaiah 9:5-6; 11:1-5). **THE CHURCH HAS
ALWAYS FOLLOWED ST. MATTHEW IN SEEING THE TRANSCENDENT FULFILLMENT OF
THIS VERSE IN CHRIST AND HIS VIRGIN MOTHER. THE PROPHET NEED NOT HAVE
KNOWN THE FULL FORCE LATENT IN HIS OWN WORDS; AND SOME CATHOLIC
WRITERS HAVE SOUGHT A PRELIMINARY AND PARTIAL FULFILLMENT IN THE
CONCEPTION AND BIRTH OF THE FUTURE KING HEZEKIAH, WHOSE MOTHER, AT
THE TIME ISAIAH SPOKE, WOULD HAVE BEEN A YOUNG, UNMARRIED WOMAN
(HEBREW, ALMAH). THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS PREPARING, HOWEVER, FOR ANOTHER
NATIVITY WHICH ALONE COULD FULFILL THE DIVINELY GIVEN TERMS OF
IMMANUEL'S MISSION, AND IN WHICH THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF THE
MOTHER OF GOD WAS TO FULFILL ALSO THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY IN THE
INTEGRAL SENSE INTENDED BY THE DIVINE WISDOM.** (Emphasis added) NAB

the good deacon:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us, in #497: "The gospel accounts
understand the virginal conception of Jesus ans a divine work that surpasses all
human understanding and possibility: "That which is conceived in her is of the
Holy Spirit," said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee. The Church sees
here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah:
[u]"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."[/u]

I would certainly place the statement in the Catechism, which the Pope has
called "a sure norm for teaching the faith" above the statement of a
"historical-critical" professor. He's off-base in his statement.
Find a new seminary.

Edited December 3, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[cmotherofpirl]

Father Most:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FR92203.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FR92203.TXT[/url]


THe Holy Father
Redemptoris Mater encycllical 1987

The divine plan of salvation -- which was fully revealed to us with he coming of Christ -- is eternal. And according to the teaching contained in the Letter just quoted and in other Pauline Letters (cf. Col 1:12-14; Rom 3:24; Gal 3:13; 2 Cor 5:18-29), it is also eternally linked to Christ. It includes everyone, but it reserves a special place for the "woman" who is the Mother of him to whom the Father has entrusted the work of salvation. (19) [i]As the Second Vatican Council says, "she is already prophetically foreshadowed in that promise made to our first parents after their fall into sin" -- according to the Book of Genesis (cf. 3:15). "Likewise she is the Virgin who is to conceive and bear a son, whose name will be called Emmanuel" -- according to the words of Isaiah (cf. 7:14).(20) In this way the Old Testament prepares that "fullness of time" when God "sent forth his Son, born of woman . . . . so that we might receive adoption as sons. The [/i]coming into the world of the Son of God is an event recorded in the first chapters of the Gospels according to Luke and Matthew.

20. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, 55

Edited December 3, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[cmotherofpirl]

ISAIAH’S PROPHECY FULFILLED IN INCARNATION
Pope John Paul II
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Old Testament only points to mystery of Mary’s motherhood, but the New Testament proclaims that the birth of Jesus fulfils the prophet’s words
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel" (Is 7:13-14). These well-known words from the prophet Isaiah were the subject of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 31 January, as he continued his reflections on Mary's role in salvation history. Here is a translation of his talk, which was the 13th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. In discussing the figure of Mary in the Old Testament, the Council (Lumen gentium, n. 55) refers to the well known text of Isaiah, which caught the particular attention of the early Christians: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel" (Is 7:14).

During the annunciation of the angel, who invites Joseph to take to himself Mary, his wife, "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit", Matthew gives a Christological and Marian significance to the prophecy. In fact, he adds: "All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel' (which means God-with-us)" (Mt 1:22-23).

2. In the Hebrew text this prophecy does not explicitly foretell the virginal birth of Emmanuel: the word used (almah), in fact, simply means "a young woman", not necessarily a virgin. Moreover, we know that Jewish tradition did not hold up the idea of perpetual virginity, nor did it ever express the idea of virginal motherhood.

The Lord himself will give you a sign

In the Greek tradition, however, the Hebrew word was translated "parthenos", "virgin". In this fact, which could seem merely a peculiarity of translation, we must recognize a mysterious orientation given by the Holy Spirit to Isaiah's words in order to prepare for the understanding of the Messiah's extraordinary birth. The translation of the word as "virgin" is explained by the fact that Isaiah's text very solemnly prepares for the announcement of the conception and presents it as a divine sign (Is 7:10-14), arousing the expectation of an extraordinary conception. Now, it is not something extraordinary for a young woman to conceive a son after being joined to her husband. However, the prophecy makes no reference to the husband. Such a formulation, then, suggested the interpretation given later in the Greek version.

3. In the original context, the prophecy of Is 7:14 was the divine reply to a lack of faith on the part of King Ahaz, who, threatened with an invasion from the armies of the neighbouring kings, sought his own salvation and that of his kingdom in Assyria's protection. In advising him to put his trust solely in God and to reject the dreadful Assyrian intervention, the prophet Isaiah invites him on the Lord's behalf to make an act of faith in God's power: "Ask a sign of the Lord your God". At the king's refusal, for he preferred to seek salvation in human aid, the prophet made the famous prediction: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel" (Is 7:13-14).

The announcement of the sign of Emmanuel, "God-with-us", implies the promise of God's presence in history, which will find its full meaning in the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word.

4. In the announcement of the wondrous birth of Emmanuel, the indication of the woman who conceives and gives birth shows a certain intention to associate the mother with the destiny of the son—a prince destined to establish an ideal kingdom, the "messianic" kingdom—and offers a glimpse of a special divine plan, which highlights the woman's role.

The sign, in fact, is not only the child, but the extraordinary conception revealed later in the birth itself, a hope-filled event, which stresses the central role of the mother.

The prophecy of Emmanuel must also be understood in the horizon opened by the promise made to David, a promise we read about in the Second Book of Samuel. Here the prophet Nathan promises the king God's favour towards his descendent: "He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son" (2 Sam 7:13-14).

God wants to exercise a paternal role towards David's offspring, a role that will reveal its full, authentic meaning in the New Testament with the Incarnation of the Son of God in the family of David (cf. Rom 1:3).

5. The same prophet Isaiah, in another very familiar text, confirms the unusual nature of Emmanuel's birth. Here are his words: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and he will be called 'Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace’" (9:5). Thus the prophet expresses, in the series of names given the child, the qualities of his royal office: wisdom, might, fatherly kindness, peacemaking.

The mother is no longer mentioned here, but the exaltation of the son, who brings the people all they can hope for in the messianic kingdom, is also reflected in the woman who conceived him and gave him birth.

6. A famous prophecy of Micah also alludes to the birth of Emmanuel. The prophet says: "But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days. Therefore the Lord shall give them up until the time when she who is in travail has brought forth..." (5:2-3). These words re-echo the expectation of a birth full of messianic hope, in which once again the mother's role is stressed, the mother explicitly remembered and ennobled by the wondrous event that brings joy and salvation.

Prophecy prepares revelation of virginal motherhood

7. Mary's virginal motherhood was prepared for in a more general way by God's favour to the humble and the poor (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 55).

By their attitude of placing all their trust in the Lord, they anticipated the profound meaning of Mary's virginity. By renouncing the richness of human motherhood, she awaited from God all the fruitfulness of her own life.

The Old Testament then does not contain a formal announcement of the virginal motherhood, which was fully revealed only by the New Testament. Nevertheless, Isaiah's prophecy (Is 7:14) prepares for the revelation of this mystery and was construed so in the Greek translation of the Old Testament. By quoting the prophecy thus translated, Matthew's Gospel proclaims its perfect fulfilment through the conception of Jesus in Mary's virginal womb.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
7 February 1996, page 11
L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:

The Cathedral Foundation

[Theologian in Training]

Thank You. I don't think you understood my frustration, he was adamant about dismissing the Messianic interpretation in favor of the historical interpretation.

See, my question amidst all of this is what makes us so sure we know exactly what Isaiah saw? We know the saints have had visions and prophesied, why do we feel as though those in the Bible could not have had similar visions? When did we walk in to the mind of the prophet and see what he saw? How do we know he did not see a vision of the Nativity, why is it so hard for biblical exegetes to believe that perhaps he actually saw the actual birth of Christ. Granted, I am speculating, but so are the exegetes when they definitively say that that is how it is and nothing else makes sense. It is to be a strict historical interpretation and Jesus and Mary have no room in this prophecy.

It is both sad and frustratiing, more sad than anything else. Sometimes you have to feel bad for Jesus and Mary when we do things like this.

Thanks again to everyone

God Bless

[qfnol31]

If he's a Catholic, it's infallibly taught that that section deals with the Virgin Birth of His Majesty.

[cmotherofpirl]

Here is the excerpt from my friends letter, I emailed the entire letter to you Theo.



I will begin with the official teaching of the Catholic Church
in Article 497 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

497 THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS UNDERSTAND THE VIRGINAL CONCEPTION OF JESUS
AS A DIVINE WORK that surpasses all human understanding and
possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy
Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The
Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through
THE PROPHET ISAIAH: "BEHOLD, A VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE AND BEAR A
SON."150

Cheryl, that #150 reference in the Catechism refers the reader
to; "Isa 7:14 in the LXX, quoted in Mt 1:23 (Gk)."

The Church has ALWAYS taught that Isaiah 7:14 IS a prophecy about
Jesus Christ. Every single Father and Doctor of the Church who wrote
a Commentary on Is. 14 states that it is the Apostolic Tradition that
this is a reference to Jesus Christ.



Now for academic proofs:

The following commentary on Is. 14, is from the most extensive modern
authorized English Commentary on Scripture in English. [Lots of
people put out their private commentaries.] It is from the "Catholic
Commentary on Holy Scripture", authorized by Cardinal Griffin, and
written in total synch with Pope Pius XII's 'Divino Afflante
Spriritu'.

The authors were 44 of the very best English language Scripture
Scholars from throughout the world. Many of them were members of -
and consultors to, 'The Pontifical Biblical Commission', which was
then a teaching arm of the Magisterium. Here is the Scriptural text
and commentary from page 546 of this Commentary:

"The Emmanuel Prophecy - 'Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a
son and she shall call his name Emmanuel. Butter and honey shall he
eat that he may know to refuse the evil and to choose the good.
14b. the Hebrew word here translated 'virgin'is not the technical
term 'b tulah', but its practical equivalent, 'almah', which means an
unmarried maiden of marriagable age, presumed to be a virgin by the
strict moral code of the Hebrews. The word NEVER designates a married
woman and is sometimes rendered 'virgin' by the LXX
(Septuagint)....THE IMPOSITION OF THE CHILD'S NAME BY THE MOTHER,
CONTRARY TO CUSTOM CONFIRMS THE CONCLUSION OF A VIRGINAL CONCEPTION.
Emmanuel necessarily implies by the Hebrew image God's omnipotent aid
and consequently deliverance.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 3 2004, 09:46 AM'] Here is the excerpt from my friends letter, I emailed the entire letter to you Theo.



I will begin with the official teaching of the Catholic Church
in Article 497 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

497 THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS UNDERSTAND THE VIRGINAL CONCEPTION OF JESUS
AS A DIVINE WORK that surpasses all human understanding and
possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy
Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The
Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through
THE PROPHET ISAIAH: "BEHOLD, A VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE AND BEAR A
SON."150

Cheryl, that #150 reference in the Catechism refers the reader
to; "Isa 7:14 in the LXX, quoted in Mt 1:23 (Gk)."

The Church has ALWAYS taught that Isaiah 7:14 IS a prophecy about
Jesus Christ. Every single Father and Doctor of the Church who wrote
a Commentary on Is. 14 states that it is the Apostolic Tradition that
this is a reference to Jesus Christ.



Now for academic proofs:

The following commentary on Is. 14, is from the most extensive modern
authorized English Commentary on Scripture in English. [Lots of
people put out their private commentaries.] It is from the "Catholic
Commentary on Holy Scripture", authorized by Cardinal Griffin, and
written in total synch with Pope Pius XII's 'Divino Afflante
Spriritu'.

The authors were 44 of the very best English language Scripture
Scholars from throughout the world. Many of them were members of -
and consultors to, 'The Pontifical Biblical Commission', which was
then a teaching arm of the Magisterium. Here is the Scriptural text
and commentary from page 546 of this Commentary:

"The Emmanuel Prophecy - 'Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a
son and she shall call his name Emmanuel. Butter and honey shall he
eat that he may know to refuse the evil and to choose the good.
14b. the Hebrew word here translated 'virgin'is not the technical
term 'b tulah', but its practical equivalent, 'almah', which means an
unmarried maiden of marriagable age, presumed to be a virgin by the
strict moral code of the Hebrews. The word NEVER designates a married
woman and is sometimes rendered 'virgin' by the LXX
(Septuagint)....THE IMPOSITION OF THE CHILD'S NAME BY THE MOTHER,
CONTRARY TO CUSTOM CONFIRMS THE CONCLUSION OF A VIRGINAL CONCEPTION.
Emmanuel necessarily implies by the Hebrew image God's omnipotent aid
and consequently deliverance. [/quote]
Thanks.

I changed my email though, prolly should have done it here too.

Would you mind emailing me it again? I just changed it.


Thanks

God Bless

[Apotheoun]

I would recommend reading the Pontifical Biblical Commission's document, [u]The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church[/u], which gives principles for understanding the various senses of scripture, and which explains how the [i]literal[/i] and [i]spiritual[/i] senses of the text relate to each other. As the PBC document explains: "The literal sense of Scripture is that which has been expressed directly by the inspired human authors. Since it is the fruit of inspiration, this sense is also intended by God, as principal author. One arrives at this sense by means of a careful analysis of the text, within its literary and historical context. The principal task of exegesis is to carry out this analysis, making use of all the resources of literary and historical research, with a view to defining the literal sense of the biblical texts with the greatest possible accuracy (cf. Divino Afflante Spiritu: Ench. Bibl., 550). To this end, the study of ancient literary genres is particularly necessary (ibid. 560)." [PBC [u]The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church[/u], Part II, Section B, No. 1] The document later defines that the spiritual sense is a higher fulfillment of the text which is discovered in the light of "The paschal event, the death and resurrection of Jesus," for the Paschal Mystery "has established a radically new historical context, which sheds fresh light upon the ancient texts and causes them to undergo a change in meaning. In particular, certain texts which in ancient times had to be thought of as hyperbole (e.g. the oracle where God, speaking of a son of David, promised to establish his throne [i]forever[/i]: 2 Sm. 7:12-13; 1 Chr. 17:11-14), these texts must now be taken literally, because 'Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more' (Rom. 6:9). Exegetes who have a narrow, [i]historicist[/i] idea about the literal sense will judge that here is an example of an interpretation alien to the original. Those who are open to the dynamic aspect of a text will recognize here a profound element of continuity as well as a move to a different level: Christ rules forever, but not on the earthly throne of David (cf. also Ps. 2:7-8; 110: 1.4)." [PBC [u]The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church[/u], Part II, Section B, No. 2] For the full text of the PBC document click the link below:

[url="http://www.salvationhistory.com/Library/Scripture/ChurchAndBible/PBC/IBC.cfm"]PBC document "The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church"[/url]