Immaculate Conception

[InHisHands381]

Oh wow! Thanks everyone for the ample explanations!

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 8 2004, 01:21 AM'] Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.
[/quote]
You've made a bit of a logical leap there by adding the word always. Care to elaborate?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 9 2004, 04:32 PM'] You've made a bit of a logical leap there by adding the word always. Care to elaborate? [/quote]
[quote]perfect passive participle[/quote]

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 9 2004, 03:52 PM'] perfect passive participle [/quote]
"It has been written in the past and is still in force" != "It has been written in the past, was always written and is still in force"

[Benedict]

[quote]The Greek perfect tense denotes a present state resulting from a past action, with both the past action (what happened) and the present state (as things are now) in view. ... [b]It must be emphasized that when this Greek tense is used, the state of being which follows on the action is continual. The state of being started with the action and does not end at any time. The action was perfect and lasting if this tense is used.[/b][/quote]

[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFarticle.asp?vm_id=64&art_id=18941&sec_id=35720"]http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFartic...41&sec_id=35720[/url]

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Dec 10 2004, 02:00 AM']
[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFarticle.asp?vm_id=64&art_id=18941&sec_id=35720"]http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFartic...41&sec_id=35720[/url] [/quote]
That still doesn't offer enough of an explanation -- i.e. it doesn't give the 'always' part.

The Greek perfect tense denotes a present state [b]resulting from a past action[/b], with both the past action (what happened) and the present state (as things are now) in view. ... It must be emphasized that when this Greek tense is used, the state of being which [b]follows on the action [/b]is continual. The state of being started with the action and does not end at any time. The action was perfect and lasting if this tense is used.

[Guest Aluigi]

so what it does prove is that Mary didn't sin at all after the Virgin birth at least. I agree there.

the other instances, it has been written, since the time it was originally written. just like you have been favorable (continuously) since the time you originally existed. I will concede that it does not 100% assure that from the moment of conception she was without sin, but it does proove that at one point before the annunciation she stopped sinning and did not have original sin anymore either and she stayed that way the rest of her life. we say it happened at the very conception, basing ourselves on the ECF theory of Mary as the New Eve.

[Benedict]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 10 2004, 09:20 AM'] That still doesn't offer enough of an explanation -- i.e. it doesn't give the 'always' part. [/quote]
You are disputing the 'always' before part, the 'always' after part, or the 'always' in total part?

It discusses the always after part, "[the state] does not end at any time".

The before part is a matter of faith but take a moment to think about it. Considering that we know from the tense that Mary was fully graced from the time prior to Gabriel's greeting and forever afterward, which moment makes the most sense for God to completely fill her with His grace? The most logical instance would be her conception.