Semi-pelagianism unveiled

[Brother Adam]

Grace Alone, as most often defined by Protestants, especially evangelical reformed Protestants is contrary to the fundamentals of the Catholic faith. Grace alone as defined in it's proper context is quite appropriate and a true Catholic doctrine.

However in error you may be, I appreciate you looking around the site a bit.

Blessings,
Bro. Adam

[Brother Adam]

btw- I like your new sig. It shows the deep rooted fallacy in the understanding of how the scriptures work in the life of the Church Luther had.

Edited December 10, 2004 by Brother Adam

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 9 2004, 07:47 PM'] Grace Alone, as most often defined by Protestants, especially evangelical reformed Protestants is contrary to the fundamentals of the Catholic faith. Grace alone as defined in it's proper context is quite appropriate and a true Catholic doctrine. [/quote]
Explain

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 9 2004, 07:48 PM'] btw- I like your new sig. It shows the deep rooted fallacy in the understanding of how the scriptures work in the life of the Church Luther had. [/quote]
On the contrary, sir - he said it to those who claimed to have some kind of special revelation or tradition from the Holy Spirit that could not be proved by Holy Writ. I think Roman Catholics would be wise to listen to that phrase.

[Guest Aluigi]

read my post

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:41 PM'] the terms "faith alone" and "grace alone" as any Catholic would understand it connotates an idea that one without any good works can get into heaven. the Catholic Church says it is grace alone that saves, but because it works through faith which is kept alive by works it cannot be ALONE in the entire salvation process. [/quote]
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what grace is, and what it does. Yes, God's grace brings about good works in the one whose life is being transformed by Christ. I absolutely agree.

However, the term 'grace alone' means that it is solely God's grace that brings a person to salvation and secures them in perseverance thereunto. Rome, however much she may affirm the necessity of grace, disavows the [i]sufficency[/i] of it by saying that we must not resist grace, etc. In essence, they add the work of not resisting to God's grace.

[Mary's Knight, La]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 9 2004, 08:09 PM'] Rome, however much she may affirm the necessity of grace, disavows the [i]sufficency[/i] of it by saying that we must not resist grace, etc. In essence, they add the work of not resisting to God's grace. [/quote]
The sufficiency of grace is undisputed however, by definition "sufficient materials for building a house" are sufficient for building a house however, if the materials go unused they remain something other than a house.

God's grace is sufficient for salvation however, if we don't "use" His grace and live in it then how can we be saved.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 9 2004, 07:00 PM']

THe CCC is not infallable, much of it is not even doctrine, one free to dissent with some of it and still be a faithful Catholic. [/quote]
Nope.

APOSTOLIC LETTER
LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE

IN WHICH THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

IS APPROVED AND PROMULGATED

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY



With today's promulgation of the Latin typical edition, therefore, the task of composing the Catechism, begun in 1986, is brought to a close and the desire of the aforementioned Extraordinary Synod of Bishops is happily fulfilled. [u]The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a "valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion" and as a "sure norm for teaching the faith," as well as a "sure and authentic reference text"[/u] for preparing local catechisms (cf. Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, no. 4).

[Guest Aluigi]

well, first off how can that statement I made be a fundamental misunderstanding of grace if you agree with it and then bring up another point entirely? i didn't bring up having to comply with grace.

and as to having to comply with grace, it's just the wording that has you confused. let me rephrase this thing you've been hearing all the time from us about free-will that you have labeled semi-pelagianism. the "our acceptance of God's grace" thing is [b]faith[/b]. and so, if grace works through faith, and if there exists no faith in someone (which is the same as there existing no works) then the grace does not have anything to work with. works are a free choice, we may either do good works or do evil works or be indifferent in our actions. there is the action of free will, which either sustains faith, strengthens faith, or if it be the wrong choice kill faith.

faith is a free gift (like the free gift of a puppy, you must feed a puppy). works feed faith. faith is what grace works through. grace alone saves.

[Don John of Austria]

thessalonian, thessalonian, thessalonian, I doubt you have any idea where I'm going to go, you see this isn't the first time we have had this fight on Phatmass.




[quote]
The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a "valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion" and as a "sure norm for teaching the faith," as well as a "sure and authentic reference text" for preparing local catechisms [/quote]

Cmom-- funny I don't see anything there which says " every statement isn here is hereby infallably defined or everystatement in here is doctrinal, or one is obliged by order of the Magisterium to submit in the mind to every thing in the Catachism. So whats your point.

[noncatholicname]

[quote]Protestants call God doing this work in us filthy rags. They say God's work in us and through us can have no value in salvation. Paul disagrees with them of course:
[/quote]

You were doing pretty good up till this. NO, we don't say that. We say that OUR WORKS are filthy rags.

You hold us to the standard of understanding what you believe. Do us the same courtesy.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Sure, it's not official Catholic Church teaching, but if it's not, shouldn't it be corrected? [/quote]

There are entire movements in Protestantism that need correciton. You should worry about your own tradition which feeds plenty of souls on the "doctrines of devils". But who or what is there that can unite your fractured and schismatic denominations?

[Benedict]

Is there a reason why noncatholicname is not listed as a . . . non-catholic?

[Justified Saint]

[quote]This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what grace is, and what it does. Yes, God's grace brings about good works in the one whose life is being transformed by Christ. I absolutely agree.

However, the term 'grace alone' means that it is solely God's grace that brings a person to salvation and secures them in perseverance thereunto. Rome, however much she may affirm the necessity of grace, disavows the sufficency of it by saying that we must not resist grace, etc. In essence, they add the work of not resisting to God's grace. [/quote]

It is called being a creature of God, the act of living and the act of will. Calvin, being the humanist scholar that he was, sought to resurrect the deadly Pantheism of old and he did a very good job of it. As long as one tacitly denies the will and creation, they have no consistent, teleological understanding of God or His design and are guilty of the gravest of heresies.