The Bishop of Rome

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

My quotes weren't meant to prove Peter's Primacy, rather to show that his Chair did not end after his death. His Chair was inherited by successive Roman Bishops. I bolded the references to the Chair of Peter (not Peter's primacy, his chair) and the authority of the Church of Rome.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 9 2004, 09:41 PM'] Christ is present within everything on earth? [/quote]
Yes.

"O heavenly King, o comforter, the spirit of Truth,
Who art in all places and fillest all things,
Treasury of good things and giver of light,
Come and dwell in us, cleanse us from every stain,
and save our souls O Gracious Lord."

- The beginning of the Trisagion Hymn one of the chief prayers in Orthodoxy written by St. Symeon.

This prayer kind of says it all "Who art in all places and fillest all things." The Lord is everywhere. I heard a great conference about nature as a holy icon. It discussed how the Earth itself was a reflection of the majesty of God, etc etc. Wonderful conference. So yes, Christ is omnipresent.

[Mateo el Feo]

The problem is that you seem to be defending your previous statement (i.e. "because Christ never left Earth to begin with") with your latest statement ("i.e. Christ is omnipresent").

While God is omnipresent, the Holy Bible and Holy Tradition clearly show that Christ Ascended into Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. Christ is not present in the way that He was 2000 years ago. This is why He established His Catholic Church.

[Archangel]

Matthew 16:18-19

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 [b]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.[/b] Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Not only did Jesus say He would build His church upon Peter, He gave the keys to heaven (representing authority) to Peter alone. This authority has been passed down to the other bishops of Rome for the last 2000 years.

Solid? Yes, solid as a Rock!

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Dec 10 2004, 01:19 AM'] The problem is that you seem to be defending your previous statement (i.e. "because Christ never left Earth to begin with") with your latest statement ("i.e. Christ is omnipresent").

While God is omnipresent, the Holy Bible and Holy Tradition clearly show that Christ Ascended into Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. Christ is not present in the way that He was 2000 years ago. This is why He established His Catholic Church.

[/quote]
Actually, I was defending the omnipresence of Christ with that comment. Cmom seemed to think that saying Christ is present in all things was a questionable statement. I don't feel that it is.

As far as Christ being the head of the church as the "invisible bishop" - that's the teaching of some of the church fathers.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 10 2004, 03:05 AM']Actually, I was defending the omnipresence of Christ with that comment.  Cmom seemed to think that saying Christ is present in all things was a questionable statement.  I don't feel that it is.

As far as Christ being the head of the church as the "invisible bishop" - that's the teaching of some of the church fathers.[/quote]
The Catholic Church teachs that God is omnipresent. In my view, it's prudent to explicitly reject pantheism if the statement could be misunderstood.

Regarding the "invisible bishop" teaching of the church fathers, it is appropriate to quote your sources when making this kind of statement. For example [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2PSTGR.HTM"](link)[/url]:
[quote]The tradition which sees the Bishop as an image of God the Father is quite ancient. As Saint Ignatius of Antioch wrote, the Father is like an invisible Bishop, the Bishop of all. Every Bishop, therefore, stands in the place of the Father of Jesus Christ in such a way that, precisely because of this representation, he is to be revered by all.[/quote]

Enjoy!

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Dec 10 2004, 04:15 AM'] The Catholic Church teachs that God is omnipresent. In my view, it's prudent to explicitly reject pantheism if the statement could be misunderstood.

Regarding the "invisible bishop" teaching of the church fathers, it is appropriate to quote your sources when making this kind of statement. For example [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2PSTGR.HTM"](link)[/url]:


Enjoy! [/quote]
where in the world do you have books that give you direct quotes from all the church fathers? I could probably do that with medieval Europe but I don't have those kind of resources for theology as of yet.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 10 2004, 05:19 AM'] where in the world do you have books that give you direct quotes from all the church fathers? I could probably do that with medieval Europe but I don't have those kind of resources for theology as of yet. [/quote]
Here's a start:

[url="http://www.aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/store.ItemDetails/SKU/475/"]The Sources of Catholic Dogma by Henry Denzinger[/url]

Also, there's a bunch of stuff online (Christian websites, university websites, etc).

For example:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]NewAdvent.org's Church Fathers (link)[/url]

Also, the reference section lists a bunch of resources:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=10116"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=10116[/url]

Enjoy!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 10 2004, 06:19 AM'] where in the world do you have books that give you direct quotes from all the church fathers? I could probably do that with medieval Europe but I don't have those kind of resources for theology as of yet. [/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/[/url]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 10 2004, 06:52 AM'] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/[/url] [/quote]
Here is a site where you can download them on to your PC. That allows for easy searchs.

[url="http://www.zeitun-eg.org/ecfidx.htm"]http://www.zeitun-eg.org/ecfidx.htm[/url]

[Benedict]

I go here:

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/"]http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/[/url]

Because it is very easy to type. My Cecil.

Edited December 10, 2004 by Benedict

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]"The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth....If anyone disobey the things which have been [b]said by Him through us[/b], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Pope Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101], 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

"Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate..." Pope Victor I [regn. A.D. 189-198], in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (A.D. 192).

"Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the [b][i]succession[/i] from Peter[/b], on whom the foundations of the Church were laid...Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession [b][i]the throne[/i] of Peter[/b]." Pope Stephen I [regn. A.D. 254-257], Firmilian to Cyprian, Epistle 74/75:17 (A.D. 256).

"I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed Apostle Peter s, that I signify to you; and I should not have written this, as deeming that these things were manifest unto all men, had not these proceedings so disturbed us." Pope Julius [regn. A.D. 337-352], To the Eusebians, fragment in Athanasius' Against the Arians, 2:35 (c. A.D. 345).

"Why then do you again ask me for the condemnation of Timotheus? Here, by the judgment of [b]the apostolic see[/b], in the presence of Peter, bishop of Alexandria, he was condemned, together with his teacher, Apollinarius, who will also in the day of judgment undergo due punishment and torment. But if he succeeds in persuading some less stable men, as though having some hope, after by his confession changing the true hope which is in Christ, with him shall likewise perish whoever of set purpose withstands the order of the Church. May God keep you sound, most honoured sons." Pope Damasus [regn. A.D. 366-384], To the Eastern Bishops, fragment in Theodoret's EH, 5:10 (c. A.D. 372).

"We bear the burdens of all who are heavy laden; nay, rather, the blessed apostle [b]Peter bears them in us and protects and watches over [i]us, his heirs[/i][/b], as we trust, in all the care of his ministry....[b]Now let all your priests observe the rule here given, unless they wish to be plucked from the solid, apostolic rock upon which Christ built the universal Church[/b]....I think, dearest brother, disposed of all the questions which were contained in your letter of inquiry and have, I believe, returned adequate answers to each of the cases you reported by our son, the priest Basianus, to the Roman Church as to the head of your body....And whereas [b]no priest of the Lord is free to be ignorant of the statutes of the Apostolic See and the venerable provisions of the canons[/b]." Pope Sircius [regn. c A.D. 384-399], To Himerius, bishop of Tarragona (Spain), 1,3,20 (c. A.D. 392).[/quote]
ScriptureCatholic.com and Catholic.com also have extensive quotes from the Fathers. These were obtained from ScriptureCatholic.com.