The Simple Truth

[Joolye]

There's a song I know (by the Paul Colman Trio) that has a line in it that says, "And they tell you you're educated if you complicate the simple truth." I once thought that was what Bible College did, have since changed my mind.

However it seems to me that you Catholics certainly don't have a simple truth. So, is the truth simple or complicated to start with? Or have people complicated the simple truth?

Golly, that's a complicated question!!

[Anna]

I believe God gave us each a brain to use it.

Unlike the other creatures, humans have been given the ability to use reason.

God uses reason. He created us in His image and likeness. He expects us to use the gift of reason with which we've been endowed.

The Truth is simple enough, like 2+2=4.

We can reason this, and it will always be the same.

Yet, some people try to oversimplify the Truth, so that 2=4, which, it just doesn't equal in value, and never will....

God reveals himself more and more to us, the more we educate ourselves. The more science, history, and yes, even math, we learn, the more we can marvel at how amesome, Wise, and All-knowing is Our God, who created it all...

Pax Christi. <><

Edited October 15, 2003 by Anna

[Anna]

Take for instance, the origin of the Holy Bible.

Ask someone where the Bible came from.

A simpleton's answer is: It was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

That is true, as far as it goes, but it does not explain fully where the Bible came from, now does it?

Some people would argue to keep it simple, cuz they might not like the answer if they really have to do some research! They'd rather stay ignorant of the Truth, and "keep it (overly) simple," to the point that it is lacking seriously.

I challenge anyone who thinks that the Truth should be kept simple to explain, really and physically where this Holy Book of Books originated and came to be known today as the Bible...

Warning: It will require thinking and research! :lol:

[jasJis]

God is both simple enough for a child to know, and complicated enough to be beyond our fathom. We are only required to use the intelligence God gave us to comprehend Him. To those who were given more, more is asked. That is why the Body of Christ in us, one of the aspects of His Church on Earth, is neccesarily composed of so many people.

B)

[Katholikos]

It depends on the intelligence of the individual whether he finds Truth complicated or simple. And, one must ask, the Truth about what?

If one has the capacity for physics and mathematics, they seem simple. To a philosopher (a lover of widsom) the questions concerning teleology (the doctrine that final causes exist) seem easy. The astronomer deals with questions of the universe and space that are beyond most of us, but simple to him.

Catholicism is so simple that the uneducated, illiterate natives of the most remote jungles of the world can (and do!) understand it and practice it. And it is so complex that even astrophysicists and the priest-astronomers at the Vatican Observatory find it challenging to their intellect.

Catholicism is God-made, so one size fits all of His children.

It took Christ three years to teach it to his Apostles. But if taught systematically, it can be taught in a few days or weeks. If one wants to delve into the underlying philosophy and theology, it will take longer.

[Katholikos]

phatmass is acting up again -- posts are duplicating. I thought it was my computer but Anna and cmom had the same problem. Duplicate deleted.

Edited October 15, 2003 by Katholikos

[Katholikos]

Joolye, did your "Bible college" teach the history of the Bible? The history of Christianity?

[Jake Huether]

There's a song I know (by the Paul Colman Trio) that has a line in it that says, "And they tell you you're educated if you complicate the simple truth." I once thought that was what Bible College did, have since changed my mind.

However it seems to me that you Catholics certainly don't have a simple truth. So, is the truth simple or complicated to start with? Or have people complicated the simple truth?

Golly, that's a complicated question!!

That's an excellent question to ponder.

Think about it...

If the Catholic faith was the ONLY faith, then would it be so complicated.

Tying your shoe at first is VERY complicated, but the more you do it, the more you practice it... Now it is second nature.

But with the "reformation", so many twists on the simple Catholic faith have come out that really now it isn't simple. Certain sects have lowered the bench mark to make their church, their "faith" EVEN simpler.

The fact of the matter is, the Catholic Church has simply never lowered the bench mark that Christ set.

Christ said it would be hard to get into heaven.

If your faith is that simple, then seriously question it.

[Katholikos]

Right on, Jake.

Here's a summary of the Baptist faith I once espoused (I was raised in it):

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

That was it. Belief alone (Sola Fide). Pretty simple, huh?

[Jake Huether]

Right on, Jake.

Here's a summary of the Baptist faith I once espoused (I was raised in it):

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

That was it.  Belief alone (Sola Fide).  Pretty simple, huh?

Even Satan believes in Jesus. That's way too simple! ;)

[BLAZEr]

Simple things have intellectual depth. Simple things have mystery. You can ponder and meditate upon a simple thing and never completely know it.

In that way, God is simple. He doesnt' require that you know him completely, but he allows you to know him completely both in his simplicity and in his mystery.

Take this for Example: "God so loved the World that he Gave his only son, that any who believe in him might not perish, but have everlasting life."

Simple enough right? We can read it and believe it and understand the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ completely right? But we can also look at that sentence and say "Who is God?" "What is love" "Who/what is the world?" "What does it mean to "give?" "What does 'son' mean?" "What does it mean to believe?" "What does it mean to 'not perish'?" "What is everlasting life?"

Each of those questions comes out of that "simple" statement. And we have to know what each of those questions means in order to know what that simple statement means. Did I just complicate simplicity? Yeah, sure, in a way. But at the same time, I didn't take away its simplicity. I just pointed out that there is meaning behind those words.

That's what the Church teaches, that there is meaning behind those words. And that God invites us, desires us to use our intellect to ponder the depths of his mystery. Isn't it incredible that God could say "Eat my flesh and drink my blood or you do not have life in you" and as we ponder these things we realize that he is giving us his actual body and blood, soul, and divinity, to eat.

Isn't it incredible that when he says "Unless you are born again by water and the spirit" that God is actually asking us to become spiritual chilren through an act of baptism with actual water.

These things are incredible to me . . . simple, yet deeply profound.

[cmotherofpirl]

Look at the table in your kitchen.

Ask a child what it is: its something we put things on.

Ask my kids what it is: where we drop anything we own when we walk in the door.

Ask my neighbor what is it : its where she changes the new baby;

Ask a carpenter what it is, pine wood cut in a certain shape, held together with wood biscuits, and wood screws,with a walnut stain, covered in resin.

Ask a physicist what it is : it is a surface with a coefficient of friction Us=.04, exerts Fn=-mg, has a Mass of m (in Kg, of course), has a weight of W=mg (in Newtons), has a potential difference E=0mV( this is from my son Josh)

Anything can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

But its still a table.

[cmotherofpirl]

For some people, knowing they recieve Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, and that the Church is Jesus Christs presence on earth, is all they need or want to attain eternal life.

Some people want more details.

You could spend a lifetime learning about God and the Church He dwells in and still have not scratched the surface. THe treasury of the Church is inexhaustible.

You have about 4000 years to choose from.

My field of interest has always been scripture, particularly the OT.

[Chrysologus]

Catholicism is simple.

It only looks complicated when people challenge and distort every aspect of it, so we have to get into the nitty gritty of scripture and tradition. Once one believes it, the fundamentals become very simple!

The rest is just for fun debates.

[Joolye]

Someone asked about whether my Bible College taught about history. Yes they do. I have done history of missions. There is a subject, "Church History" but I haven't done it yet.

I liked the example with the table by Cmom.

[Katholikos]

Someone asked about whether my Bible College taught about history. Yes they do. I have done history of missions. There is a subject, "Church History" but I haven't done it yet.

My question was, "did your 'Bible college' teach the history of the Bible? The history of Christianity?"

I took the "New Testament" from a Disciples of Christ minister with a Ph.D. who was an adjunct professor at Arizona State University. Even though he taught the accurate (but brief) history of its origins, he didn't understand the implications. Another student (who was a member of the professor's church) asked: "This [Catholic] Church had to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to separate the writings that were Scripture from those that were not scripture, so why do we believe that the Holy Spirit abandoned that Church and that we had to start another one?" Someone else asked: "How can we believe in Sola Scriptura when the first Bible didn't exist until the beginning of the fifth century?" His answer to both Qs: "I dunno. Never thought about it."

I hope you will think about the implications of Bible history. It raises many questions. For example, what did Christians believe when there was no Bible? How and from whom did they learn? What's the evidence for the "apostasy"? Did Jesus really mean it when he said "and the powers of death shall not prevail against it [His Church]?" And many more.

If the course your college offers in "Church History" does not follow the history documented by trained, objective, accredited historians from major universities whose work is scrutinized by their peers -- but teaches invented, "wishful thinking" history -- beware.

Is history simple or complex? Christianity is historical. Catholicism and Christianity are synonomous.

Are you still enrolled in Bible college? What denomination is it?

Peace be to you and to all.

Oremus pro invicem, Katholikos

[cmotherofpirl]

Someone asked about whether my Bible College taught about history. Yes they do. I have done history of missions. There is a subject, "Church History" but I haven't done it yet.

I liked the example with the table by Cmom.

I think the basic idea is from CS Lewis in Mere Christianity.

[marielapin]

I actually learned a great deal about the history of Christianity and the early Church - Catholic Christianity - from an atheist. He was an art history teacher who actually had a question on one of his tests about who the first Pope was. It was amazing.

[M.SIGGA]

"did your 'Bible college' teach the history of the Bible? The history of Christianity?"

Jooley,

I'm sure you probably did, but how creditable were the sources at your Bible College. I attended a Catholic high school with a few liberal religion teachers who loved to talk about the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition and this was the only view of the Inquisition I ever had, so when people were speaking about the Inquisition I was the first to talk smack about it. I was taught that it was an evil far worse than any other during the Reformation. Why should I not question the validity, afterall it was at a Catholic school (and I'm Catholic) that I recieved most of my religious training?

It wasn't until my sophomore year in college with an unbiased atheist history professor of Western Civilization did I realize the teachings on the Inquisition that I recieved were Bias. While lecturing on the English Refrmation, the professor revealed surprising stats that showed Queen Elizabeth I killed/persecuted/tortured more Catholics in the First year of her reign than all years of the 'evil' Spanish Inquisition - today she is only remembered for England's Golden Age. I learned this was from the mouth of someone who hated the Church, but who respected the TRUTH.

It's up to you to do the same - the people at your Bible College might have been of your same denomination, but are you sure they were unbias and not leading you in the wrong direction? You might not trust Catholic Church on faith and morals, but HISTORY is something factual that cannot be altered. I believe the Catholic Church gives the best and fairest record of history and they have the books and official documents to prove it - as proof they even document the times when some Churchmen were not very holy. Baptists claim they have existed sice Christ's time, but i have yet to see one document or historical occurance that validates there assertion.

It's up to you yourself to seek the TRUTH and find it b/c the TRUTH will set you free!!!

God Bless :D

[Joolye]

If the course your college offers in "Church History" does not follow the history documented by trained, objective, accredited historians from major universities whose work is scrutinized by their peers -- but teaches invented, "wishful thinking" history --  beware. 

I am sure it would follow documented history.

Are you still enrolled in Bible college?  What denomination is it? 

I am still enrolled, but I am not studying anything at the moment. I am too busy.

It is multi-denominational, but it is known to be Pentecostal/Charismatic.

how creditable were the sources at your Bible College.

Pretty creditable. I made sure I went to what I considered to be the best Bible College in my area. I had heard that certain other ones taught some false teachings.