aborted babies and salvation

[Don John of Austria]

This is a topic that keeps coming up so I would like to know where everybody stands on the issue. Feel free to post your reasons.

[Don John of Austria]

I don't know wherethe extra choice dot came from, please don't check it.

[qfnol31]

Baptism is necessary. However, there exists a theory that the desire of the parents is enough for the children to be Baptized, it may hold true if anyone wants their Baptism.

Edited December 19, 2004 by qfnol31

[Don John of Austria]

Thats a silly theory with regards abortion, how can you desire a lump of flesh to be baptized( not saying the unborn are a lump of flesh but that is what women will tell you who murder there children) I mean come on there killing the child. Further Third party Baptism of desire is verging on either heresy or just plain silliness, I desire that eveyone in the world be baptized, sincerly I do, and that desire will not save those who are not.

Edited December 19, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Brother Adam]

We are confined to the sacraments, God is not. Because of the Lord's will that all should be saved, we hope and pray, through his infinite mercy, that there is means by which those who die without baptism, especially infants, may be saved, or in any case, avoid the full wrath of hell.

[Apotheoun]

To enter into the beatific vision one must be in a state of deifying grace, but it does not of necessity follow that aborted children will suffer damnation in hell, because they may receive some type of consolation from God in a lesser state of happiness. As Blessed Pius IX said, "God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, [i]His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments[/i]." [Blessed Pope Pius IX, [u]Quanto Conficiamur Moerore[/u], 10 August 1863]

[qfnol31]

This may be really far out, but is it possible for Jesus to appear to the child just before death? It has the full capacity for rationality from the moment of conception...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 19 2004, 10:54 AM'] This may be really far out, but is it possible for Jesus to appear to the child just before death? It has the full capacity for rationality from the moment of conception... [/quote]
Such speculation goes beyond anything that has been revealed.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments[/quote]

Sounds like a arguement for limbo to me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 10:56 AM'] Sounds like a arguement for limbo to me. [/quote]
I am amenable to the concept of an intermediate state of existence analogous to the Scholastic concept of "limbus puerorum," but I don't care for the terminology used by the medieval theologians in order to support this idea.

[Don John of Austria]

Out of curiosity what of the Scholastic terminology do you find distastful?

[Guest Aluigi]

i think it carries a connotation of being part of hell hell (though it is part of like sheol, "hell" just not in the modern conception of the word)

i think that it is a state of natural hapiness, which is what i voted for, but i'm not sure if eternal necessarily fits. last time Jesus came he freed the souls from purgatory, it stands to reason he very well could do it again and set everything in order close up all loose ends.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:11 AM'] Out of curiosity what of the Scholastic terminology do you find distastful? [/quote]
The distinction between a [i]natural[/i] and a [i]supernatural[/i] end is foreign to the Eastern Catholic theological tradition. Man has no natural end, for his true and only end is God. Thus, if there is an intermediate state of existence, it is in some sense a supernatural participation in God's uncreated energies. Those who die without receiving baptism, but who have not committed any actual sins, would still experience, at least in some sense, God's intimacy; however, that experience would be of a lesser quality than the one given to those who die in a state of deifying grace, for only those who have been uncreated by grace can receive the full vision of God in unapproachable light, and become God in God.

[Don John of Austria]

I forgot you where an Eastern Catholic, you see the distinction between Natural and Supernatural, seems almost essential to me, but I understand your Idea that one cannot be happy without some measure of experiancing God, I don'tthink that any scholatic would have said that there was no connection with God in Limbo, just not a supernatural connection.

It is the God in God term that bothers me, we are never God in God, God is and eternally will be seperate and distinct from His creation.

Edited December 19, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

Come on guys 62 views and only 6 votes, whats up?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:34 AM'] I forgot you where an Eastern Catholic, you see the distinction between Natural and Supernatural, seems almost essential to me,  but I understand your Idea that one cannot be happy  without some measure of experiancing God, I don'tthink that any scholatic would have said that there was no connection with God in Limbo, just not a supernatural connection.[/quote]
Man truly becomes God in God, but not by participating in God's essence, which is and always will be inaccessible to him, but by participating in God's uncreated energies. In other words, man is truly deifed by God's uncreated grace, and so [i]theosis[/i] must not be reduced to a mere metaphor. The Byzantine theological tradition has a different metaphysical understanding of the nature of created reality, and if you are interested in understanding it better I would recommend reading Dr. Scott F. Pentecost's dissertation at CUA entitled [u]Quest for the Divine Presence: Metaphysics of Participation and the Relation of Philosophy to Theology in St. Gregory Palamas’s [i]Triads[/i] and [i]One Hundred and Fifty Chapters[/i][/u]. The idea that nature can be in some sense autonomous or that there can be a natural end which is distinct from God is problematic. God is the only true end of all that has been created; for as St. Paul said in the book of Acts, it is ". . . in Him [that] we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 19 2004, 11:34 AM'] It is the God in God term that bothers me, we are never God in God,  God is and eternally will be seperate and distinct from His creation. [/quote]
God is, and will always be, essentially distinct from His creation, but the world is permeated with God's creative and sustaining energies. Moreover, through the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, God's purifying, sanctifying, illuminating, and deifying energies are now accessible to man, and as a consequence, man can become divine. As St. Athanasius said, "God became man, so that man might become God."

[Quietfire]

what of Baptism by blood for the unborn?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Dec 19 2004, 12:45 PM'] what of Baptism by blood for the unborn? [/quote]
I believe that one must die specifically for the faith in order for his death to have the effect of the Sacrament of Baptism.

[Socrates]

I honestly don't know where aborted babies go - a sort of Limbo seems reasonable to me, though.

I've never really been able to buy the pious theory that aborted babies are martyrs for the faith because abortion is a crime against Christ. By this logic, any innocent victim of any murder would have an instant crown of martyrdom.