TULIP

[goldenchild17]

Alright, I'm in a discussion with someone on the whole Calvinistic TULIP deal. We started at the top with Total Depravity. And yes, I've been all through the Reference section. And although it's helping a lot, I would really appreciate it if someone here could walk me through the whole deal. It may be slow going but if someone could help me that would be great.

First Total depravity

"Despite its name, the doctrine of total depravity does not mean men are always and only sinful. Calvinists do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be. They claim our free will has been injured by original sin to the point that, unless God gives us special grace, we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve God in love. We might choose to serve him out of fear, but not out of unselfish love [9].

What would a Catholic think of this teaching? While he would not use the term "total depravity" to describe the doctrine [10], he would actually agree with it. The accepted Catholic teaching is that, because of the fall of Adam, man cannot do anything out of supernatural love unless God gives him special grace to do so [11].

Thomas Aquinas declared that special grace is necessary for man to do any supernaturally good act, to love God, to fulfill God's commandments, to gain eternal life, to prepare for salvation, to rise from sin, to avoid sin, and to persevere [12]."

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm[/url]

Is this the Catholic teaching? Do we agree mostly with Total Depravity? And maybe a simpler 1 to 2 line definition would be great. Second, what is the Biblical support for this belief? I'll start with this and hopefully one of ya'll will be able to help play along

[Fides_et_Ratio]

No, Catholics do not believe that we are totally depraved. Why? Because we are made in the image of God-- it is our redeeming quality. Now, your Calvinist friend will probably tell you that only Adam and Eve were made in God's image (because Seth was made in the image of Adam... but what is Adam's image? lol It's a vicious circle!)

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Dec 24 2004, 02:52 AM'] Alright, I'm in a discussion with someone on the whole Calvinistic TULIP deal. We started at the top with Total Depravity. And yes, I've been all through the Reference section. And although it's helping a lot, I would really appreciate it if someone here could walk me through the whole deal. It may be slow going but if someone could help me that would be great. [/quote]
i'll try my best. calvinists are usually very theologically-minded, so their arguments can get very complex (and occasionally convoluted). sometimes its hard to stay w/ them and follow their train of thought. at least, that has been my experience

[quote]First Total depravity

"Despite its name, the doctrine of total depravity does not mean men are always and only sinful. Calvinists do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be. They claim our free will has been injured by original sin to the point that, unless God gives us special grace, we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve God in love. We might choose to serve him out of fear, but not out of unselfish love [9].[/quote]
i would say that whoever is attempting to represent calvinism here is not doing it justice, b/c i have never heard a calvinist say that they "do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be." i would guess that the majority of calvinists would be up in arms over this statement. total depravity means just that, total depravity, that we are born consumed with sin and lacking any type of redeeming value. that is how total depravity has always been defined to me by calvinists.

that said, i would have him elaborate on what he means by saying that our free will has been injured. what does he see as the repurcussions of this? if he thinks that original sin has stripped us of the ability to choose good--that we must first be forced to do good [i][b]despite[/b][/i] our free will--then catholics would disagree. the Church holds that grace compels us to do good, it shows us what is the good thing to do and makes it easier for us to choose it. but, we still must choose it. we simply cannot deny the free will that God has given us. but, i may be getting to far ahead of myself.....

[quote]What would a Catholic think of this teaching? While he would not use the term "total depravity" to describe the doctrine [10], he would actually agree with it. The accepted Catholic teaching is that, because of the fall of Adam, man cannot do anything out of supernatural love unless God gives him special grace to do so [11].[/quote]
i agree with this, as long as we do not discredit the role of our will.

[quote]Thomas Aquinas declared that special grace is necessary for man to do any supernaturally good act, to love God, to fulfill God's commandments, to gain eternal life, to prepare for salvation, to rise from sin, to avoid sin, and to persevere [12]."

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm[/url][/quote]
agreed

[quote]Is this the Catholic teaching?  Do we agree mostly with Total Depravity?  And maybe a simpler 1 to 2 line definition would be great.  Second, what is the Biblical support for this belief?  I'll start with this and hopefully one of ya'll will be able to help play along [/quote]
total depravity, as i understand it, is contrary to the inherent dignity of the human person and his ability--given to him by God--to choose right from wrong. total depravity as it is presented by the author does seem to be more in line w/ catholic teaching.

was that helpful at all? i will find the scripture verses later on.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

i know u may have read it already, but [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"][b]this article[/b][/url] provides an excellent summary of the catholic position on predestination as well as the scriptural support.

let me know if u need more help

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Phatcatholic']i'll try my best. calvinists are usually very theologically-minded, so their arguments can get very complex (and occasionally convoluted). sometimes its hard to stay w/ them and follow their train of thought. at least, that has been my experience[/quote]
Tell me about! But I'm very interested in this, so I thought I'd give it a try. btw, the person I'm discussing it with is ICTHUS if this helps any.


[quote name='Phatcatholic']i would say that whoever is attempting to represent calvinism here is not doing it justice, b/c i have never heard a calvinist say that they "do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be." i would guess that the majority of calvinists would be up in arms over this statement. total depravity means just that, total depravity, that we are born consumed with sin and lacking any type of redeeming value. that is how total depravity has always been defined to me by calvinists.[/quote]
Okay. Here is the definition he gave me.

Total Depravity (Total Inability)

"Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. [b]The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.[/b]
[b]
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel[/b] (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5)."


[quote name='Phatcatholic']that said, i would have him elaborate on what he means by saying that our free will has been injured. what does he see as the repurcussions of this? if he thinks that original sin has stripped us of the ability to choose good--that we must first be forced to do good [i][b]despite[/b][/i] our free will--then catholics would disagree. the Church holds that grace compels us to do good, it shows us what is the good thing to do and makes it easier for us to choose it. but, we still must choose it. we simply cannot deny the free will that God has given us. but, i may be getting to far ahead of myself.....[/quote]
Yeah, we touched on this a bit. I'll get more into this with him in a bit.



[quote name='Phatcatholic']i agree with this, as long as we do not discredit the role of our will.[/quote]

Okay. From what I'm getting out of him so far, the human will does play a part. We do accept or reject God's grace. But we can only do so once the grace has been extended, or offered to us. We can't go and get the grace without it being offered to us. Something like that. Does that help at all?

[quote name='Phatcatholic']agreed[/quote]


[quote name='Phatcatholic']total depravity, as i understand it, is contrary to the inherent dignity of the human person and his ability--given to him by God--to choose right from wrong. total depravity as it is presented by the author does seem to be more in line w/ catholic teaching.[/quote]
Okay so the link is more in line w/Catholicism. I'll see where ICTHUS differs on this version and then go from there.

[quote]was that helpful at all? i will find the scripture verses later on.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic[/quote]

Very helpful thanks. I really would like to understand this whole idea, so yeah this is really cool. I'm looking forward to Scripture that supports the idea that is in line with this idea of depravity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Dec 24 2004, 09:27 AM'] Okay.  Here is the definition he gave me.

Total Depravity (Total Inability)

"Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. [b]The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.[/b]
[b]
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel[/b] (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5)."

Very helpful thanks.  I really would like to understand this whole idea, so yeah this is really cool.  I'm looking forward to Scripture that supports the idea that is in line with this idea of depravity. [/quote]
If the Calvinists mean "total inability" it would serve their goals better to use that term rather than the heretical term "total depravity."

Nothing that God has created can be "totally depraved," and to assert that man is in such a condition, is nothing else but a form of the Manichaean heresy.

Luther himself asserted that man's very nature [i]is[/i] original sin; in other words, he made sin and evil essential and positively existing things, rather than seeing them as a negation of the good in the will of the creature.

God bless,
Todd

[Theoketos]

T.U.L.I.P not only means total deprevity it also means:

T otal deprevity

U nconditional election

L imited Atonement

I rresistible Grace

Perseverance of the Saints.

Each one of those is confusing and most of the time we can agree with about half out what they say.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Dec 24 2004, 09:23 PM'] T.U.L.I.P not only means total deprevity it also means:

T otal deprevity

U nconditional election

L imited Atonement

I rresistible Grace

Perseverance of the Saints.

Each one of those is confusing and most of the time we can agree with about half out what they say. [/quote]
I know. I'm talking about the whole issue. But we just started with Total Depravity. We'll get to all of them eventually. Can anyone give me the Scriptural and Early Church evidence of the Catholic position regard Total Depravity?

[ICTHUS]

Hi Colin...

I KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GETTING YOUR HELP FROM!!

Phbbbbbbt!!

See you on CGR.

[phatcatholic]

icthus, mind your own business!

hehe

[Tink]

Sorry, I can't offer any words of wisdom or intellect, but I think what just happened was very funny. And ironic.

[cathqat]

goldenchild17 originally referred to "http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm" in his question. Yes, the article does accurately reflect Calvinist and Catholic thought. Jimmy Akin is a former Calvinist turned Catholic apologist.

If you want to know what Calvinists believe, I always thought that the best books for it are R.C. Sproul's [i]Chosen By God[/i] and Lorraine Boettner's [i]Reformed Doctrine of Predestination[/i], both of which I loved back when I was a Calvinist.

If you want Catholic resources, I recommend the books & links I mentioned on the other thread... "Calvin & Catholic Book."

Edited January 1, 2005 by cathqat