Icthus.... Please show me...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 06:00 PM'] That is one priest. Who cares about him? Sure, if he wants to go crying home to a church that has abandoned the Holy Gospel and become a synagogue of Satan, let him. [/quote]
ICTHUS, this kind of response is beneath you. Try to remain charitable.

Belated Merry Christmas and God bless,
Todd

[james]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 08:11 PM'] Of course "The Church" is the One True Church. But "The Church" is not the Roman Catholic Church.

[/quote]


What according to your belief is "The Church," specifically?

Edited December 28, 2004 by james

[Quietfire]

[quote]I do not deny the things that the Early Church believed. The Early Church did not believe in purgatory, praying to the dead, etc. These things are nowhere mentioned in Scripture, therefore, the Early Church did not believe in them. The post-Apostolic church may have believed in them, but the Early Church did not.[/quote]
The early Church most definitely believed in purgatory and praying for the dead. Unless you are reading from a Protestant Bible. May I suggest you obtain a Catholic Bible that has all the books that werent removed by Luther.
[quote]Of course "The Church" is the One True Church. But "The Church" is not the Roman Catholic Church.[/quote]
Sorry, it is the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the same now as it was 2000 years ago when it was founded by Our Lord and the keys were given to Peter.
[quote]First of all, I have asked you before, and I will not ask you again. SPELL "ANGLICAN" correctly! ARE you learning disabled or something?[/quote]
No, Im sure he isnt. Just like Im sure when you state Roman Catholic, you are actually trying to say Catholic.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='james' date='Dec 27 2004, 08:29 PM']

What according to your belief is "The Church," specifically? [/quote]
[quote]I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6][/quote]

1. Ephesians 1:10-23, Ephesians 5:23-32
2. 1 Cor 1:2, 1 Cor 12:12-13, Psalm 2:8, Rev 7:9, Rom 15:9-12
3. 1 Cor 7:14, Acts 2:39, Eze 16:20-21, Romans 11:16, Genesis 17:7
4. Matt 13:47, Isa 9:7,
5. Eph 2:19, Eph 3:15.
6. Acts 2:47

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Dec 27 2004, 08:31 PM']



No, Im sure he isnt.  Just like Im sure when you state Roman Catholic, you are actually trying to say Catholic. [/quote]
[quote]The early Church most definitely believed in purgatory and praying for the dead.  Unless you are reading from a Protestant Bible.  May I suggest you obtain a Catholic Bible that has all the books that werent removed by Luther.  [/quote] My copy of the Holy Scriptures contains the apocrypha, but I do not consider them Holy Scripture (they are certainly profitable for reading, but we do not look to them to establish any doctrine)

[quote]Sorry, it is the Roman Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church is the same now as it was 2000 years ago when it was founded by Our Lord and the keys were given to Peter. [/quote] Begs the question.

[quote]No, Im sure he isnt. Just like Im sure when you state Roman Catholic, you are actually trying to say Catholic[/quote] No, [color=red] edited for lack of manners [/color], I wasn't. I said Roman Catholic because I do not believe that the Catholic Church subsists within you.

Edited December 28, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 06:43 PM'] No, . . ., I wasn't. I said Roman Catholic because I do not believe that the Catholic Church subsists within you. [/quote]
It is rather foolish to call everyone who is in communion with the Pope "Roman" Catholic, because many Catholics are not "Roman" at all.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - Icthus, try breathing deeply a few times before posting a message so that you can avoid making rude comments.

[Paladin D]

ICTHUS, not all Catholics in the Roman Catholic Church are "Roman". Would you call a Byzantine Catholic a "Roman Catholic"?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Dec 27 2004, 09:14 PM'] ICTHUS, not all Catholics in the Roman Catholic Church are "Roman". Would you call a Byzantine Catholic a "Roman Catholic"? [/quote]
Yes, because he chooses to put himself under the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 10:11 PM']
I do not deny the things that the Early Church believed. The Early Church did not believe in purgatory, praying to the dead, etc. These things are nowhere mentioned in Scripture, therefore, the Early Church did not believe in them. The post-Apostolic church may have believed in them, but the Early Church did not.


[/quote]
Yes you do.

The Early Church did believe in Purgatory. Purgatory has been taught since before Christ came.

We do not pray to the dead. The Early Church and Catholics of today pray to Saints who are alive in Heaven. There are many Anglicans that pray to Mary and even use the Rosary (http://anglicansonline.org/resources/essays/whalon/AngRC-diffEng.html).

They are mentioned in Scripture, you should really read it. Like how the Apostles taught that women shouldn't be and cannot be ordained.

You do not know what you are talking about... as usual, and I'll post everything again, which I have posted on these topics to you, and you'll ignore them without any rebutal... because you know your wrong and it appears that you are ok with error.



The Catholic Church coined the term "purgatory" to describe what is spoken of in the bible.
Look these up....
1 Peter 3:19 Matt. 12:32 Luke 12:59 2 Macc. 12:43-46 Rev 20:13-15
Rev. 21:27 1 Cor 3:15 Isaiah 6:6-7

Read below and learn (from Jewish site: [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish)"]http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish)[/url]
make sure you note the bold.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kaddish
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

----------------------------------

The Acts of Paul and Thecla



"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).


Abercius



"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).


The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity



"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).


Tertullian



"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).


Cyprian of Carthage



"The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).


Cyril of Jerusalem



"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).


Gregory of Nyssa



"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).


John Chrysostom



"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf" (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).


Augustine



"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death" (ibid., 172:2).

"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

"The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death" (ibid., 29:109).




[quote]Second, the only reference I found to that was on a Roman Catholic website. Show it to me on a secular or Anglican website, and show it to me in context, and I will reply to it. [/quote]

When are you going to connect the dots on this topic?

Rome says the Angelicans are not in communion... the Angelicans attempt to reconcile with Rome to get in communion. This is just another nugget to show Rome has the authority.

The Angelican church broke off from the Catholic Church because of a King that had no control of himself and the king thought he was above the Church established by Christ. How the angelican church began proves that it's just another group that fits Acts 20:30...



[quote]Third, you never replied to Saepius Officio, and there has never been an official Roman Catholic reply to it either. You merely spouted some garbage about it being anti-Roman, and then proceeded to cite it out of context - when all it was saying was that by the criterion that Rome uses to declare Anglican orders invalid, she declares her own invalid as well. [/quote]



Wrong again. I did reply and no the Church does not declare her own orders invalid.


[quote]
[url="http://www.anglican.org/church/ChurchHistory.html"]http://www.anglican.org/church/ChurchHistory.html[/url]
The name "Anglican" means "of England", but the Anglican church exists worldwide. It began in the sixth century in England, when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine to Britain to bring a more disciplined Apostolic succession to the Celtic Christians. The Anglican Church evolved as part of the Roman church, but the Celtic influence was folded back into the Roman portion of the church in many ways, perhaps most notably by Charlemagne's tutor Aidan. The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries.

[/quote]

Sad how they treat the primitive faith like a buffet....

Let's look at some quotes from St. Augustine...

Rightly, then, Catholic Church, most true mother of Christians.
- St. Augustine. On The Trinity. Chapter 30, para. 62

"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).


"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).





It will be interesting to see if you ignore, blow off, or drop this thread.
Since the anglican church came out of the Catholic Church, they cannot be of the One True Faith because the Apostles said so... WHOEVER leaves the group does so to their own destruction. Acts 20:29-20. We know people will come forth distorting the truth... We know that the One True Church will never be overcome and guided in all truth and is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth... The True Church will have had Peter as the first Head Bishop.... THEREFORE any church that does not have the Successor of Peter CANNOT be the One Faith.


God Bless.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]Since the anglican church came out of the Catholic Church, they cannot be of the One True Faith because the Apostles said so... WHOEVER leaves the group does so to their own destruction. Acts 20:29-20[/quote] No, you beg the question by assuming that the catholic church subsists within the Church of Rome. The Anglican communion is a member of the universal church.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 02:55 AM'] No, you beg the question by assuming that the catholic church subsists within the Church of Rome. The Anglican communion is a member of the universal church. [/quote]
I don't assume that, the Early Church Fathers have taught that since the first century.

Ignorance is not bliss... start studying.

Read the quotes above.

It is foolishness you write and everyone can see it because you have been proven wrong by the Early Church Fathers, not me.

St. Augustine, who went to Britain, a saint which the Anglican church recognizes as having the "Primative Faith" - Has proven you wrong.



It's almost comical how badly you set yourself up. If you only would study, you wouldn't be a laughing stock.

I'm trying to help you here, you keep writing things of your opinion without one shread of evidence to back you up. If you would study, maybe you would find some kind of truth that could help your stance, then I think most of us here would respect that.... You don't have to be a barking dog, get educated then try to debate.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 27 2004, 11:52 AM'] [b]Please show me:[/b] (in regards to the Early Church Fathers)[list]
[*]The Early Church Fathers that were never loyal to the Pope
[*]That did not believe in the Sacraments that can only be found in the Catholic Church
[*]That did not believe in Apostolic Succession
[*]That did not believe that Peter was the first leader of the Church
[*]That did not believe Mary was Ever Virgin
[*]That believe that other denominations are ok and holy
[/list]God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Please show me: (in regards to the Early Church Fathers)

-The Early Church Fathers that were never loyal to the Pope
-That did not believe in the Sacraments that can only be found in the Catholic Church
-That did not believe in Apostolic Succession
-That did not believe that Peter was the first leader of the Church
-That did not believe Mary was Ever Virgin
-That believe that other denominations are ok and holy



The very Church you slander is the Church of the Early Church Fathers. If you don't believe that, you are a fool. The whole secular world believes it, and the educated protestants. Even by the father of the protestants who started the disent with his list of 95 lies and half truths.

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ [b]Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John[/b]


[b]Roman Catholicism [/b]
[b] Encyclopædia Britannica Article [/b]
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.

[b]Structure of the church > Doctrinal basis > Apostolic succession[/b]
The claim of the Roman Catholic Church to be the one legitimate continuation of the community established by Jesus Christ is based on apostolic succession. This does not mean that there are apostles, nor does it mean that individual Apostles transmitted some or all of their commission to others. The officers of the church, the bishops, are a college (organized group or body) that continues the college of the Apostles, and the individual bishop is a successor of the Apostles only through his membership in the college.

The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office).









All you can do is cry that we're wrong without a shred of evidence to back what you claim. Who's the fool? One who supplies document on document to prove his point, or the one who cries "your wrong" without any proof to back what they claim?


Where are the Early Church Fathers that back what you claim? Show us them please so I can understand and see some kind of Love for Christ. How can someone love Christ when they constantly attack His Church without any evidence against it?



God Bless,
ironmonk