declaring war on abortion

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]If we went to war against abortion, then the whole nation would collapse. [/quote]

So what? any nation which murders it's own children doesn't desearve to continue in existance.

[quote]It would set a very very dangerous precedent, not to mention completely and irrevocably divide the American nation[/quote]

Agian so what? this is an extremly weak arguement, the continued existance of any nation doesn't have any moral wieght.

[quote]Soon, we would be fighting over homosexuality, the seperation of church and state issues.[/quote]

Okay. taken with in the realm of proportionality this is not really problem, some things are worth fighting for.
[quote]
You can't just fight over anything you want, even if it is the most important thing in the world.[/quote]

This is an oxymoronic from the get go, the most important thing in the world is certianly not the same as "anything I want".

[quote]Sometimes you have to use common sense. If we fought, our entire constitution would be null and void.[/quote]

Well sense our contitution was evil from the beginning and has been turned progressively more evil, I agian don't see this as a terribly compeling arguement.

[quote]Now, I am not for say, pharmacists filling out prescriptions for contraceptives, that is wrong, and you should stand up for yourself.[/quote]

What does this have to do with anything, the pharmisist in question arn't murdering anyone are they?

[quote]But in America, abortion is legal, and until people are forced to have abortion, and until it is directly affecting you, then we should not fight.[/quote]

Wow you really really concern me-- unless it is effecting you you shouldn't do anything that is one of the most evil attitudes I have ever heard of. If someone where trying to murder me I would hope others wouldn't just walk on by because it didn't " affect" them. that is such an unremmitingly evil statement I can't imagine you even said it.
[quote]
Plus, we are beginning to turn the tide against the pro-death supporters, and I think that pretty soon, 50 years at the most, it will be gone. Civil war should be the last of the last resorts.
[/quote]

if abortion las t another 50 years in this country and there has not already been a civil war over it, then we will have all earned our place in the deepest circle of Hell.

[Guest Aluigi]

Don John, I'd be interested in your take on [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=26528"]The Boondock Saints[/url]

even if you haven't seen the movie, just based on how i described it there i guess.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 31 2004, 03:51 AM'] So what? any nation which murders it's own children doesn't desearve to continue in existance. [/quote]
Possibly true, but in this case our government only tolerates it, does not force it. This is a huge distinction, but the only thing wrong here is the law permitting it, which tecnically there isn't one. Without the law, even if abortion is permitted, that's technically okay because it is embedded in the Natural Law, while human law is there to accompany the Natural Law, to help lead us to it. One would wish that in this case it really wasn't necessary.

[quote][quote]It would set a very very dangerous precedent, not to mention completely and irrevocably divide the American nation.[/quote]Again so what? this is an extremly weak argument, the continued existence of any nation doesn't have any moral wieght.[/quote]

Well, dividing the nation can cause more harm than good. How many men died during the Civil War? This is something that should be overcome with prayer and fasting first off.

[quote][quote]Soon, we would be fighting over homosexuality, the seperation of church and state issues.[/quote]Okay. taken with in the realm of proportionality this is not really problem, some things are worth fighting for.[/quote]

I don't disagree with you here, but I want to offer a word of warning about the idea of proportionality, in shich case the Revisionists take this out of context and Proportionalism really becomes a heresy if not handled correctly. I only say this because of your use of proportionality.

[quote][quote]You can't just fight over anything you want, even if it is the most important thing in the world.[/quote]This is an oxymoronic from the get go, the most important thing in the world is certianly not the same as "anything I want".[/quote]

LoL, just for fun I want to say that I want the Will of God, which I would consider the most important thing in the world...but I'm not sure I understand you here.

[quote]Well sense our contitution was evil from the beginning and has been turned progressively more evil, I agian don't see this as a terribly compeling arguement.[/quote]

I have stated multiple times that I haven't seen a good argument for this. This one you'll have to support straight from the Constitution itself, in light of the Admentments [i]and[/i] Declaration of Independence.

[quote]What does this have to do with anything, the pharmisist in question arn't murdering anyone are they?[/quote]

Technically they're contributing to an intrinsic evil, something I'm against (as I am against abortion), but not immoral for the state not to have a law against it.

[quote][quote]But in America, abortion is legal, and until people are forced to have abortion, and until it is directly affecting you, then we should not fight.[/quote]Wow you really really concern me-- unless it is effecting you you shouldn't do anything that is one of the most evil attitudes I have ever heard of. If someone where trying to murder me I would hope others wouldn't just walk on by because it didn't " affect" them. that is such an unremmitingly evil statement I can't imagine you even said it.[/quote]

I think we should do something about it because it's an intrinsically evil act and against the dignity of the human person. However, I think our fight must be with as remote of [b]material[/b] cooperation in evil as possible.

[quote]if abortion las t another 50 years in this country and there has not already been a civil war over it, then we will have all earned our place in the deepest circle of Hell.[/quote]

I dunno what to say about this actually.

[Q the Ninja]

I am in no way condoning abortion at all. I want to make clear the fact that even though abortion is permitted, that does not make our goverment evil. China's government is evil; it forces the abortions. The Human Law will not encompass all of Natural Law, for it is unjust to do so.

Now do I think we should take a stand against abortion? Absolutely! I used to, when I could, pray at the abortion clinics once a month and went to the March for Life each year. We definately need to take a stand! I just question how far our fighting should go, for even murdering an abortionist is an intrinsically evil act.

I do not think that a war is remote enough. Too many innocent people would lose their lives. It is not necessary, for I see the decision changing soon. A war is only just if it as remote as possible.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Q the Ninja

[Q the Ninja]

[quote]the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
[b]all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; [/b]
there must be serious prospects of success;
[b]the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition[/b][/quote]

I do not believe either of these will be followed in such a war.

[Q the Ninja]

Of all you proposing to go to "war," how many have actually stood vigil outside a clinic before?

Believe me, that works.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote]All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. 

The second condition establishes war as a last resort. If there are other practical and effective means of stopping the aggressor, they must be used.

Alternatives include one-to-one diplomacy; international pressure; economic sanctions; and such tools as blockades, quarantines, covert actions, and small-scale raids that do not amount to a full-scale war effort. It is not necessary to employ all such methods before going to war. It is sufficient if rigorous consideration reveals them to be impractical or ineffective.

They would be shown to be impractical if rigorous consideration revealed that, even though they might work in theory, they were not practically possible.

They would be shown to be ineffective if they had little or no chance of stopping the aggression and preventing the damage that it will bring.[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

If you want to stop an abortion give the mother a good reason not to kill her child.
Find out the reasons and fix the complications.

[Q the Ninja]

I agree! Otherwise I think you're asking for trouble.

[Phatmasser777]

Christ was the ultimate pacifist. War wasnt in his 'dictionary'. However it still crept into Church teaching.

Btw would the war including pipe bombing, and shooting up doctors?

Hmm u kno that sounds like terrorism

[Q the Ninja]

War was in God's dictionary.

[Phatmasser777]

Not in Christs. He spoke against violence all the time, and even made actions against it.

[Q the Ninja]

Unless you're a tri-theist or an Arianist, it'd be in both Christ's and God's.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Q the Ninja

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 31 2004, 03:51 AM']
So what? any nation which murders it's own children doesn't desearve to continue in existance.



Agian so what? this is an extremly weak arguement, the continued existance of any nation doesn't have any moral wieght.



Okay. taken with in the realm of proportionality this is not really problem, some things are worth fighting for.


This is an oxymoronic from the get go, the most important thing in the world is certianly not the same as "anything I want".



Well sense our contitution was evil from the beginning and has been turned progressively more evil, I agian don't see this as a terribly compeling arguement.



What does this have to do with anything, the pharmisist in question arn't murdering anyone are they?



Wow you really really concern me-- unless it is effecting you you shouldn't do anything that is one of the most evil attitudes I have ever heard of. If someone where trying to murder me I would hope others wouldn't just walk on by because it didn't " affect" them. that is such an unremmitingly evil statement I can't imagine you even said it.


if abortion las t another 50 years in this country and there has not already been a civil war over it, then we will have all earned our place in the deepest circle of Hell. [/quote]
Why doesn't it deserve to continue it's existence? Because it has a bad law? Then you are saying that a majority of the world's nations don't deserve to even exist just because they all allow abortion. That is not logical, or supported by church teaching.

And yes, the continued existence of a nation does have moral weight. The church calls us to be good citizens, and to make our nation a better place. I don't see how irrevocably and utterly destroying it will make anything better, or make the other side change their views in the least. All it will do will create a huge rift between the two sides, and we will be fighting for forever like the Israelis and Palestinians.

I did not mean what you want, and obviously you do want this, so that was what I was talking about

How was our constitution evil from the beginning? Evil just because it didn't turn us into a completely Christian nation, where only our views and values would be tolerated? Oh, so you mean like Iran, but Christian. How nice. And you seem to think that this nation is just the evilest thing in the world. I hate to have to inform you of this, but its a heck of a lot better than any other country. No nation is perfect, but yet you seem to think that only Christians should be running this country, and that nobody else's opinion matters or counts. You also seem to think that just because there are people who disagree with you, and that there are laws passed that you don't agree with, that that nation is evil. That is just completely false.

And I said unless it was affecting you, you shouldn't go to war, because war should be the last last step. I never said we shouldn't do anything. Thank you, but I have been to many a protest against abortion. And thanks for calling myself evil, glad to know that everything you say is prone to exaggeration.

and yes, we are all going to go to hell because we didn't kill our fellow American's, destroy our country, its economy, the very articles by which it was founded, and in the process harm those of all the other countries in the world. I'm glad I have you here to tell me that I'm going to hell, glad I don't have to wait for God to make that decision. So go ahead, go and start one of the greatest and deadliest religious crusades that there has ever been. And when it's over, and when the abortionists still don't want to change sides, and when the country is totally split, at least YOU know you'll be going to heavent and that you helped out so so so many people. Have fun with that.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Dec 31 2004, 12:13 PM'] Unless you're a tri-theist or an Arianist, it'd be in both Christ's and God's. [/quote]
..........

[Q the Ninja]

You cannot separate God's words and Christ's words. They are the same.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 31 2004, 12:06 PM'] Christ was the ultimate pacifist. War wasnt in his 'dictionary'. However it still crept into Church teaching.

Btw would the war including pipe bombing, and shooting up doctors?

Hmm u kno that sounds like terrorism [/quote]
Christ' Teaching and the Teaching of the Church are inseperable, for the Keys are in the Church and have never left.

I agree though that Christ is the ultimate pacifist, because he is not one.

[Guest Aluigi]

Christ's apostles owned swords at his command and he once fashioned a whip against his enemies. sound like a pacifist to you?

[crusader1234]

Christ wasn't a Pacifist, God isn't a Pacifist either - however, Christ certainly was very very selective in his use of force. That much is true.

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 31 2004, 02:17 PM'] Christ's apostles owned swords at his command and he once fashioned a whip against his enemies. sound like a pacifist to you? [/quote]
So, there are lots of pacifists now-a-days who own guns. Doesn't mean they own them so they can kill people whenever they feel like it. And Christ never killed anyone. So I would say that he wasn't a true pacifist.