Legitimate Government

[Q the Ninja]

Is our government Legitimate?

Is it just?

[voiciblanche]

Define both, please.

[drewmeister2]

While I think our country is more just than some others, we still have alot of problems to work on. I learned that when I took Street Law last semester.

[Dreamweaver]

This reminds me of an English project we had last year, trying to come up with a utopian form of government and presenting it to the class. It was a blast.

What is your definition of just government? I doubt it would be possible to have a completely fair government. Mankind has wants, greeds, differences in values and attitude.

Our group eventually settled on an agrarian "Amish-like" kind of community, with emphasis on family, community and sharing.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Is our government Legitimate?[/quote]
No
[quote]Is it just? [/quote]
No and frankly the last one is laughable.

[Phatmasser777]

Im guessing this is the yank one.

If by Gov u mean Administration, this one is, the other one wasnt.

[b]Is it just?[/b]

Nope.

Edited January 2, 2005 by Phatmasser777

[Q the Ninja]

Hmm, anyone want to defend their arguments?

[Q the Ninja]

Legitimate - has a right to exist as government.

Just - as a Catholic we can support it (not in all actions [unless you think that the government must do all just actions], but is just as a whole).

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 2 2005, 12:46 PM'] Legitimate - has a right to exist as government.

Just - as a Catholic we can support it (not in all actions [unless you think that the government must do all just actions], but is just as a whole). [/quote]
According to those definitions...

Legitimate? Yes.

Just? I'm leaning toward yes.

[Quietfire]

What is your definition of a just government?

No government created by man can please everyone. Although a government can please a lot of people it cannot please everyone.

If a government was formed from a community of like minded people, lets say a country that is completely Catholic, loyal to the Magisterium, even questioning but totally relying on the Magisterium to define truths, then something like that can work.

The more a country has folks of varying views, religions and such then the more difficult it is to keep it just.

[Dreamweaver]

How could a government not be legitimate? I'm picturing something extreme, like the Nazi regime as not being legitimate form of government.

As for whether our government is just, I'd say that it is very hard to have a completely just form of government. You can appease to the majority, but there will always be people with conflicting values and ideas on what the government should and shouldn't do.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

A government can lose legitimacy by committing huge human rights abuses, losing the support of the people, or massive crimes in general. For instance, Slobidan Milosevic lost legitimacy in Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein lost legitimacy in Iraq, &c.

[Don John of Austria]

I poswted this on another thread but the following are requirments which I propose contend are essential for a government to be legitament-- they are an amalgamation of those requirements set forth by the Church at various times, but they are not something I just came up with.



QUOTE
We do when we're waging a just war.


Not when that Just War is revolutionary in nature.



QUOTE

Does this still happen today? I believe that Bush has tried to cut at least much of the funding.




Bush has cut the direct funding but not the indirect funding, public hospitals are still required to offer abortion services.


QUOTE


I'm looking at the big picture. How many people would end up in this war? Most of the US. Probably Canada, too. How many will die? Too many. Plus, there are other ways, as I'll mention again in a minute



No really your not, the big picture is the one that takes into account Justice for the entire world, not just those who happen to be born who happen to be in our little corner of it. but leets take a worst case senerio and say that the US and Canada where both embroiled in a long bloody civil war the realistic fatalities in such a war would be very unlikely to go above 2 or 3 million and that is a long and bloody war, or in other words less than or equal to, the amount of babies aborted in 2 years.


QUOTE
Why don't we do other things than war?




We have they have been and still are only marginally effective, or not effective at all.


QUOTE
Yes, but what was the percentage of the entire population at the time?




about 1.9 percent, comparatively we murder about .6 percent of our population every year through abortion, and we have been doing so for 30 years.


QUOTE

So because we haven't done all we can now, we should resort to violence right away?




That is as Ithcus likes to say, begging the question. Your question assumes that we have not done all that can be done, and further assumes that 32 years is right away. That sir is a logical fallascy of the most basic order, it is exactly what is being debated here.


QUOTE
I would like to hear an example of a legitimate government from you.


In order to be legitimate a government must conform to the Divine will, in that it cannot
A. legislate acts which are in direct contradiction to the well being of it's subjects
B legislate acts which seperate the Church from the state
C legislate acts which are in direct contradiction with the Reveled truths of God and promote or codify heresy
D deny that all authority comes from God and try to justify its use of Power as coming from "the people" or from a book or anything else.
E make war on God, His Holy Name, His Honor, or His Chrurch
F. Not legislate acts which are outside the Authority of the State, or legislate acts arbitrarly
G be ruled by an excommunicate


On the contrary a legit government must
A defend the well being of all of its subjects without prejudice
B Submit to the Church, in matters over which the Church has dominion
C Accept that as all authority comes from God the use of Power by the State must be limited to those things which are within the States rights, ie. the State must accept its limitations
D defend the Holy Name of God, His Honor, and His Church

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]A government can lose legitimacy by committing huge human rights abuses, losing the support of the people, or massive crimes in general. For instance, Slobidan Milosevic lost legitimacy in Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein lost legitimacy in Iraq, &c.
[/quote]

One cannot lose legitamacy for anyreason as silly as losing the support of the people, the masses are fickel and frankly stupid, King Louis XVI was the legitemate ruler of France even if all the people in France didn't support him. He had not violated any of the above principals of legitimate government, He was a Faithful Catholic pius in his faith and a Good king who loved his people. They however where duped by evil men, that did not make him suddenly cease to be legit, it made them poor subjects.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jan 2 2005, 02:02 PM']
One cannot lose legitamacy for anyreason as silly as losing the support of the people, the masses are fickel and frankly stupid, King Louis XVI was the legitemate ruler of France even if all the people in France didn't support him. He had not violated any of the above principals of legitimate government, He was a Faithful Catholic pius in his faith and a Good king who loved his people. They however where duped by evil men, that did not make him suddenly cease to be legit, it made them poor subjects. [/quote]
I agree. Louis XVI was absolutely legit; however, his wife Marie Antoinette caused the unceasing disatisfaction among those in the Third Estate.

I'm sure you're a big fan of good ol' Thomas Hobbes.

[Pio Nono]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jan 2 2005, 02:02 PM']
One cannot lose legitamacy for anyreason as silly as losing the support of the people, the masses are fickel and frankly stupid, King Louis XVI was the legitemate ruler of France even if all the people in France didn't support him. He had not violated any of the above principals of legitimate government, He was a Faithful Catholic pius in his faith and a Good king who loved his people. They however where duped by evil men, that did not make him suddenly cease to be legit, it made them poor subjects. [/quote]
JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

Here's a story to illustrate my point -

I know a priest in the St. Paul/Minneapolis archdiocese by the name of Msgr. Richard Schuler. Msgr. Schuler is the pastor of St. Agnes parish in St. Paul and a leading non-episcopal figure in the Church. One night a couple of years ago, Monsignor had Otto Hapsburg III over to dinner - the same Otto Hapsburg III who abdicated the throne of Austria and who is still active in European politics.

Msgr. Schuler said to him, "You know, Otto, one thing I hate is a quitter."

To which His Highness replied, "Well, when the horse stops running, it's time to get off."

If the ruler of a state is unable to rule his people, however legitimate he may be in ruling, he has lost his legitimacy [i]with the people[/i]. If you are trying to rule masses who will not respect your authority, you are [i]de facto[/i] no longer the ruler.

[Q the Ninja]

Don, I still want to know your sources.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='"Don John"']
We have they have been and still are only marginally effective, or not effective at all.[/quote]

I disagree. And if you they are not effective enough it is because people do not support them enough. And if people do not support the current causes, why would more drastictic ones take effect?

[cathqat]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jan 2 2005, 11:34 PM'] [quote name='"Don John"']
We have they have been and still are only marginally effective, or not effective at all.[/quote]

I disagree. And if you they are not effective enough it is because people do not support them enough. And if people do not support the current causes, why would more drastictic ones take effect? [/quote]
I agree with Theoketos. I work full-time in the pro-life movement, for example. One of my friends from college is a Sister of Life who works at [url="http://www.nurturingnetwork.org/"]the Nurturing Network[/url]. She says they are in [b]continual need[/b], not only of donations and funding, but [b]of volunteers[/b]. They [b]desperately need[/b] more people who work in medical services and counseling, people who will open their homes to become nurturing homes, people who can offer employment and educational help, and people to coordinate services on the local level.

If the pro-life movement is big enough to actually [i]succeed[/i] in a violent "just war" scenario, then it should be big enough to [b]provide these services [color=red]first[/color][/b].

[url="http://www.nurturingnetwork.org/USCCB%20Final%20Article%20As%20Published%20Aug%202004.pdf"]Read the USCCB "Respect Life" article [i]When Being Right Is Not Enough[/i] by Mary Cunningham Agee.[/url]

Then go to [url="http://www.nurturingnetwork.org/"]the Nurturing Network (http://www.nurturingnetwork.org/)[/url] now and click "Offer to Help."

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Don, I still want to know your sources. [/quote]

Well As I said it is an amalgamation of the Church's teaching over her entire existance but for starters there is Lateran II which specificly names entire groups which make war on Christians as if they where pagans, namely that they make war on monestaries and on widows and children ( wow abortion certainly does that) and that one is not obliged to honor any oath or obligation to these people furthermore that it is good and Holy for people to try to destroy them, so much so that an indulgence is given for it( as a crusade) furthermore those attemping to destroy them have there posessiona protected under pain of Excommunication and Bishops are threated with loss of office for failure to do so. Furthermore there is the Excommunication of Henry IV which specifically stated that Vassals where not obligated to obey an excommunicated soverign and that they where free to revolt.

I will finish later I must go teach class.