Satan And Abortion

[Lil Red]

we are winning, according to Fr. Frank Pavone. the whole 40 days for Life thing has been a huge success (i think they're at day 22 or 23). PP and its cohorts are going down.

[dstrycula]

A.M.D.G.

May Our Lord have mercy on us and may He end abortion. I ask this request through the intercession the Holy Family and all through all those little children who have been aborted.

P.S. Go mulls!!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Wy are loads of old threads resurfacing? I'm getting confused.

[jeffpugh]

Well, Lil Red brought this one out of the depths...

[S][N]

I'm not completely against abortion, but that story is disgusting. Why hasn't anything been done against that cult?

[infinitelord1]

yeah this story seriously makes me feel bad...

I wonder how often people have abortions....why dont people consider the alternative (adoption)? I remember back in high school we had a debate on this topic....in a case where a woman is going to die while giving birth...is it ok to have an abortion? Our teacher said that in a case like this the woman must sacrifice her life for the child. And he pointed out that there is no grounds for abortion. It is always wrong.

This is a good debate in my opinion because there is more that meets the eye. You have to consider how many people will experience grief because of the death of the pregant woman vs. how many people will experience grief because of the death of the baby. I think in most situations more people would be effected by the loss of the pregnant woman rather than the baby. I dont think this dilema justifies abortion, but it makes the decision very difficult. Another dilemma might arise when someone is raped and got pregnant because of it. Still doesnt justify abortion.

Edited October 19, 2007 by infinitelord1

[S][N]

Good points Infinite. Imo Rape, incest, death of the mother are the situations thus far I find myself seeing abortion as a neccessary evil.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='S][N' post='1405271' date='Oct 19 2007, 12:20 PM']
Good points Infinite. Imo Rape, incest, death of the mother are the situations thus far I find myself seeing abortion as a neccessary evil.[/quote]

Why should a child be killed for the crime of its father? Abortion can't undo rape or abuse. It just inflicts another wound.

I don't say this lightly. I have a good friend who was sexually abused as a child and young teenager by the leader of her Scout troop. When she was fourteen he got her pregnant. Then punched her in the stomach to force a miscarriage.

Naturally enough, she got very ill in her mind as a result of the abuse and spent nearly two years in a psychiatric hospital. (Until she tried to kill herself no one in her family knew about her mental health difficulties or about the rapes, although her doctor had started to suspect anorexia.) She was discharged in April. Now she has been having casual sex with total strangers, which to me looked like a strange 'choice' for a girl who is still terrified of men - until she thought that she had managed to get pregnant, and was jubilant over it. She's sixteen now. She still thinks about the baby her rapist killed. She thinks she is partly responsible for the death. She wants another chance.

What she is doing is illogical but not unreasonable. Even in such a perilous mental state, even after years of rape, she was aware that unborn life mattered and she would like to make some sort of restitution for that life, even though it wasn't her fault at all and nothing can be done anyway.

Abortion is not a just solution for girls and women in that situation. I would never presume to judge them for having one, as I know what abuse looks and feels and smells like. It's not always possible to make shining moral choices when you're hurting that much. But if anything, the birth of a new human being - his or her [i]own person[/i], not just the product of the rapist father - is the greatest triumph a survivor of rape can possibly have. Abortion can't offer that.

I don't know if you've ever heard the testimony of Pam Stenzl, a woman who was conceived as a result of rape. Her birth mother arranged for her to be adopted. Pam regularly speaks at pro-life events, not as a judge for women who have had abortions, but as a daughter who is deeply and humbly grateful for her mother's courage. That is what the pro-life movement is all about: gratitude for life in all circumstances and at all times, no matter how bleak and desperate the situation may look at first.

[S][N]

It doesn't really matter what I believe in the end, it's important that, that choice is available for people that find themselves in that type of situation. And it's important that choice be available.

People need to understand not everyone goes by your set of morality rules.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote name='S][N' post='1405282' date='Oct 19 2007, 06:39 AM']
It doesn't really matter what I believe in the end, it's important that, that choice is available for people that find themselves in that type of situation. And it's important that choice be available.

People need to understand not everyone goes by your set of morality rules.[/quote]

I noticed that you referred to abortion as (on occasion) a necessary evil. Do you feel it is evil because it is cruel? If not then why do you feel it is evil?

[S][N]

[quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1405297' date='Oct 19 2007, 07:16 AM']I noticed that you referred to abortion as (on occasion) a necessary evil. Do you feel it is evil because it is cruel? If not then why do you feel it is evil?[/quote]

It's evil because it has the ability to destroy lives, the fetus' and the mothers.

[uruviel]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1404987' date='Oct 18 2007, 06:08 PM']we are winning, according to Fr. Frank Pavone. the whole 40 days for Life thing has been a huge success (i think they're at day 22 or 23). PP and its cohorts are going down.[/quote]

Yeah! I've been doing the 40 days for life here in Texas, it's an amazing thing, a wonderful concept, and such a simple way of pleading for the babies lives. I am really proud of the people who stand long hours in front of the PP buildings, I know we are making a difference with every prayer and every hour. God Bless them. And I love Fr. Pavone. I haven't heard him speaking about the 40 days for life though this year.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='S][N' post='1405282' date='Oct 19 2007, 01:39 PM']
It doesn't really matter what I believe in the end, it's important that, that choice is available for people that find themselves in that type of situation. And it's important that choice be available.

People need to understand not everyone goes by your set of morality rules.[/quote]

Not everyone believes that genocide is wrong, either. Yet I oppose it and presumably you would support me in opposing it. I will defend the right to life in all circumstances, because peace begins in the womb and if there is no peace there we can have no lasting peace anywhere. It is also difficult to see abortion as a choice, especially when so many of the women who terminate a pregnancy do so because they feel they have no choice. Women deserve better than abortion.

[quote name='S][N' post='1405305' date='Oct 19 2007, 02:50 PM']
It's evil because it has the ability to destroy lives, the fetus' and the mothers.[/quote]

Should people be allowed to 'choose' something that destroys life?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='3835' date='Jul 10 2003, 06:50 PM']We all know that the real battleground on moral issues is the siritual one.

We know that the only way Satan can attack God is by attacking His image, man.

We know that ion the past 100 years he has found a new method, genocide.

We know that within the past 30 years he found the best, silent, accepted form of genocide, abortion.

This is all well and good. We think that Satan is simply quietly influencing politics, and using temptations to continue the rape of our generation. There aren't any real, substantial, satanic influences resulting from this industry. Until now.

A very good friend of mine works for a pro-life lobby group in Canada. He is extremely reliable, as is the person who related to him the following story:

This man (my friend's friend) wages spiritual warfare outside of abortuaries. One day, he was praying the rosary, watching women walk in to the mill. One young lady, as if sensing his presence across the street (in Canada it is illegal to pray in front of clinics), or seeing him out of the corner of her eye, about to walk in, turned towards him and began screaming obsenities at the top of her lungs. She approached him as he prayed silently, not wanting to move, and began ranting ever louder. He prayed for her and was able to talk to her briefly and hear her story. It is shocking:

The woman is 16 years old.
She was going into the clinic for her SIXTH abortion.
She is a member of a cult. The men of the cult have sexual relations with the women, making them pregnant.
The then get an abortion.
The aborted baby is offered up as a sacrifice....... to Satan.

This story is true. It is horrifying. It demonstrates the incredible danger of abortion to our society and the importance of this industry of death to the devil. He uses it directly in the war which he wages on God through us. A war he WILL lose, but a war in which we must redouble our efforts, for the loss of life in this war is measured not by years, but eternally.[/quote]

I read a story on this about four or five years ago.

I think I posted something about it on the old board here.

I just googled: cult "child sacrifice" abortion

[url="http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&q=cult+%22child+sacrifice%22+abortion+"]http://www.google.com/search?num=100&h...ce%22+abortion+[/url]

666 results. Coincidence? I think not.

Edited October 22, 2007 by ironmonk

[S][N]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406637' date='Oct 21 2007, 03:49 PM']Not everyone believes that genocide is wrong, either. Yet I oppose it and presumably you would support me in opposing it. I will defend the right to life in all circumstances, because peace begins in the womb and if there is no peace there we can have no lasting peace anywhere. It is also difficult to see abortion as a choice, especially when so many of the women who terminate a pregnancy do so because they feel they have no choice. Women deserve better than abortion.
Should people be allowed to 'choose' something that destroys life?[/quote]

Genocide and abortion are close but different due to the situations which can surround them. Genocide has NO justification, it's merely a weapon of war, politics and hatred.

Abortion can be (imo) a justified use in special and strict circumstances. A woman that goes out partying and gets herself pregnant and doesn't want it, is not a justification, and any woman that uses abortion for those reasons is disgusting. That type of abuse of abortion I am against.

Not all women are victims of peer pressure, stress from thinking if she doesn't get rid of it the husband will dump her etc. This is a used up line.

"because peace begins in the womb and if there is no peace there we can have no lasting peace anywhere."

How so? Sound like you just copied that from a Pro-Life book or pamphlet(sp?) and have no real understand of it's meaning.

---

"Should people be allowed to 'choose' something that destroys life?"

If it can save a life, not just physically, but mentally, Yes.

Edited October 22, 2007 by S][N

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='S][N' post='1407050' date='Oct 22 2007, 08:52 AM']
Genocide and abortion are close but different due to the situations which can surround them. Genocide has NO justification, it's merely a weapon of war, politics and hatred. Abortion can be (imo) a justified use in special and strict circumstances. A woman that goes out partying and gets herself pregnant and doesn't want it, is not a justification, and any woman that uses abortion for those reasons is disgusting. That type of abuse of abortion I am against.[/quote]

The perpetrators of genocide may hate their victims, whereas few women who go and get an abortion do so be cause they 'hate' the foetus. But there is one thing in common: a belief that one person is worth less than the other. In the case of genocide, it is because of the ethnicity, nationality, or religion of a specific group of people. In the case of abortion, it is because one life is hidden and the other is very much visible. To say that abortion is justified in some circumstances is like saying that in some circumstances one life can be privileged above another.

In Catholicism the level of culpability may change. The woman who goes out partying, has sex, and then gets an abortion would be considered fully culpable for her actions in Catholic thought. A frightened woman who has an abortion when her life and the baby's life are at grave risk would not be held as culpable. But differences in culpability don't alter the fact that abortion, like murder, is intrinsically wrong.

[quote]Not all women are victims of peer pressure, stress from thinking if she doesn't get rid of it the husband will dump her etc. This is a used up line.[/quote]

That's not the only kind of thing I was referring to, although those things do happen a lot more frequently than pro-choicers are prepared to admit. A lot of women, especially young women, think of babies, look at their carefully planned lives, and are mentally paralysed at the thought of the two being united before they are 'ready' for it. It's possible to persuade yourself that you are less capable than you really are and to dismiss giving birth without thinking it through carefully.

[quote]"because peace begins in the womb and if there is no peace there we can have no lasting peace anywhere."

How so? Sound like you just copied that from a Pro-Life book or pamphlet(sp?) and have no real understand of it's meaning.[/quote]

I have a very good understanding of its meaning, as I was nearly not here. My mum was offered an abortion for me because of my disabilities. She was told that there was a worryingly high chance (80%) of my being born 'seriously defective'. I have autism and unusually severe dyspraxia. I'm an adult woman now and I'm still not fully toilet trained, nor can I tie my own shoelaces. I'm also at one of the top three universities in the entire world. And when I got here people were all over me, gushing about my success and my determination. The student newspaper asked if they could do a feature on me called 'An Extraordinary Life'. Members of the student union approached me with obsequiousness bordering on reverence. And three weeks later one of these exact same students was participating in a Cambridge Union debate called 'This House would make it easier to get an abortion'. In Britain it is legal for a disabled baby to be aborted at any point up to birth, whereas there is a limit for 'normal' babies. (Theoretically only seriously disabled babies may be aborted up to birth, but in reality that isn't adhered to - there was a controversial case where a mother decided to abort her child because it had a cleft palate.) The same student who had congratulated me and promised to do anything she could to make life easier for me, telling me all about Cambridge's great equality and diversity, stood up in one of the world's most famous, most prestigious unions and defended that motion.

It made me feel terrible. So I'm worth something once I've 'proved' myself by being accepted into a university like Cambridge. I'm worth something once I've published books. This performing monkey matters when she's able to make people feel good about their Tolerance and their Diversity and their Equal Opportunities.

But she's not worth anything when she's still in the womb. Then she's just an unfair future burden on her mother. Unlike typically developing babies, she's expendable.

Peace begins in the womb. No one can come up to me in the courts of Cambridge and tell me how happy they are to welcome me to this place if they also support abortion. It's futile to talk about equal opportunities to enter great universities if people with disabilities don't even have an equal chance to enter the world.

'With disabilities' can be safely removed from that sentence. This is just a more obvious example of discrimination. In reality, [i]all[/i] abortion involves a strong degree of discrimination and prejudice, as one life is exalted above another life - a life which is often denied totally.

[quote]"Should people be allowed to 'choose' something that destroys life?"

If it can save a life, not just physically, but mentally, Yes.[/quote]

Abortion can leave women traumatised. It is no easier than giving birth. In fact, it can have more of a negative effect in the long-term. Adoption is much better in cases of mental health difficulties, because it offers the woman both closure and integrity.

As for saving a life physically, in certain circumstances that is permissible. One of my friends was told that her gall bladder was in imminent danger of rupturing and that both her life and the life of her foetus were at risk. The gall bladder needed to be removed. This procedure would cause the child to die.

Either way, there was death involved. Death for her and for the baby, or death for just the baby. She had her gall bladder removed and the baby died. I spoke to a very knowledgeable priest about this and he told me that in this specific circumstance there had been no sin. He likened it to chemotherapy - a pregnant woman suffering from cancer is permitted to receive treatment even if it is likely to kill the baby, because the primary purpose of the chemo isn't to facilitate an abortion but to save a life. I think this is known in theologese as 'the principle of double effect'.

However, such circumstances are [i]extremely[/i] rare. They also can't be offered as routine justification for abortion, as they involve a different approach. Chemotherapy exists purely to kill cancer. Abortion exists purely to kill the child. We make a distinction: the mother can never be done to death to save a baby, and a baby can never be done to death to save its mother.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[GodChild]

The evil of abortion is self evident in how unnatural it is for a woman to kill her own child. Every human instinct (even in animals) is geared toward [i]protecting[/i] the young - to destroy and kill your own child is abhorrent and unnatural.

That story, if its true - is very disturbing and scary

[S][N]

"To say that abortion is justified in some circumstances is like saying that in some circumstances one life can be privileged above another."

Towards abortion, yes. But trying to connect genocide and abortion as the exact same just isn't plausible. I'll grant there maybe a couple connections, such as seeing one life is more favoured than the other. HOWEVER the same reasoning, the same content behind it are not. Genocide's sole purpose is the destruction of a group of people for political, religious or just plan power.

Abortion (the ones I accept as justified) are to save the life of the mother, whether that is her physical body or her mental stability. Yes abortion would cause mental problems down the track, but also more problems if not taken. Again this depends on A LOT of variables about the woman.

As much as I hate abortion, it does have justification in some circumstances, the same as war does, another thing I despise.

-------

As for the story, was a good read and very impressive with what you've accomplished.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1407085' date='Oct 22 2007, 08:22 AM']The perpetrators of genocide may hate their victims, whereas few women who go and get an abortion do so be cause they 'hate' the foetus. But there is one thing in common: a belief that one person is worth less than the other. In the case of genocide, it is because of the ethnicity, nationality, or religion of a specific group of people. In the case of abortion, it is because one life is hidden and the other is very much visible. To say that abortion is justified in some circumstances is like saying that in some circumstances one life can be privileged above another.

In Catholicism the level of culpability may change. The woman who goes out partying, has sex, and then gets an abortion would be considered fully culpable for her actions in Catholic thought. A frightened woman who has an abortion when her life and the baby's life are at grave risk would not be held as culpable. But differences in culpability don't alter the fact that abortion, like murder, is intrinsically wrong.
That's not the only kind of thing I was referring to, although those things do happen a lot more frequently than pro-choicers are prepared to admit. A lot of women, especially young women, think of babies, look at their carefully planned lives, and are mentally paralysed at the thought of the two being united before they are 'ready' for it. It's possible to persuade yourself that you are less capable than you really are and to dismiss giving birth without thinking it through carefully.
I have a very good understanding of its meaning, as I was nearly not here. My mum was offered an abortion for me because of my disabilities. She was told that there was a worryingly high chance (80%) of my being born 'seriously defective'. I have autism and unusually severe dyspraxia. I'm an adult woman now and I'm still not fully toilet trained, nor can I tie my own shoelaces. I'm also at one of the top three universities in the entire world. And when I got here people were all over me, gushing about my success and my determination. The student newspaper asked if they could do a feature on me called 'An Extraordinary Life'. Members of the student union approached me with obsequiousness bordering on reverence. And three weeks later one of these exact same students was participating in a Cambridge Union debate called 'This House would make it easier to get an abortion'. In Britain it is legal for a disabled baby to be aborted at any point up to birth, whereas there is a limit for 'normal' babies. (Theoretically only seriously disabled babies may be aborted up to birth, but in reality that isn't adhered to - there was a controversial case where a mother decided to abort her child because it had a cleft palate.) The same student who had congratulated me and promised to do anything she could to make life easier for me, telling me all about Cambridge's great equality and diversity, stood up in one of the world's most famous, most prestigious unions and defended that motion.

It made me feel terrible. So I'm worth something once I've 'proved' myself by being accepted into a university like Cambridge. I'm worth something once I've published books. This performing monkey matters when she's able to make people feel good about their Tolerance and their Diversity and their Equal Opportunities.

But she's not worth anything when she's still in the womb. Then she's just an unfair future burden on her mother. Unlike typically developing babies, she's expendable.

Peace begins in the womb. No one can come up to me in the courts of Cambridge and tell me how happy they are to welcome me to this place if they also support abortion. It's futile to talk about equal opportunities to enter great universities if people with disabilities don't even have an equal chance to enter the world.

'With disabilities' can be safely removed from that sentence. This is just a more obvious example of discrimination. In reality, [i]all[/i] abortion involves a strong degree of discrimination and prejudice, as one life is exalted above another life - a life which is often denied totally.
Abortion can leave women traumatised. It is no easier than giving birth. In fact, it can have more of a negative effect in the long-term. Adoption is much better in cases of mental health difficulties, because it offers the woman both closure and integrity.

As for saving a life physically, in certain circumstances that is permissible. One of my friends was told that her gall bladder was in imminent danger of rupturing and that both her life and the life of her foetus were at risk. The gall bladder needed to be removed. This procedure would cause the child to die.

Either way, there was death involved. Death for her and for the baby, or death for just the baby. She had her gall bladder removed and the baby died. I spoke to a very knowledgeable priest about this and he told me that in this specific circumstance there had been no sin. He likened it to chemotherapy - a pregnant woman suffering from cancer is permitted to receive treatment even if it is likely to kill the baby, because the primary purpose of the chemo isn't to facilitate an abortion but to save a life. I think this is known in theologese as 'the principle of double effect'.

However, such circumstances are [i]extremely[/i] rare. They also can't be offered as routine justification for abortion, as they involve a different approach. Chemotherapy exists purely to kill cancer. Abortion exists purely to kill the child. We make a distinction: the mother can never be done to death to save a baby, and a baby can never be done to death to save its mother.[/quote]
Wow. What a powerful witness. You are a very eloquent woman.

[quote name='GodChild' post='1407086' date='Oct 22 2007, 08:39 AM']The evil of abortion is self evident in how unnatural it is for a woman to kill her own child. Every human instinct (even in animals) is geared toward [i]protecting[/i] the young - to destroy and kill your own child is abhorrent and unnatural.

That story, if its true - is very disturbing and scary [/quote]
God is natural. Going against God is an unnatural act. Therefore, Evil is unnatural. You've pretty much figured that out.

[bmb144]

You know what all of you have a point but there is one thing missing here and it always seems to be missing in such debates, so I'll ask the question....

[i]Where do the men come in?[/i]

You know it still takes two people to have sex, an egg does not become fertile without sperm.
So much emphasis is put on the women and her actions yet where are the men, the ones that helped her get pregnant.

Why do the men seem to get off free in this?