Why?

[thessalonian]

I do see hope on the horizon. 90% of the young priests I know are giving the straight scoop and are much more orthodox than the older priests. Fr. Corapi one time did a poll of his audience in which he asked "How many of you have liturgical abuse going on in your parishes". About 60% raised their hands I believe the number was. Now how many of you have pastors who are older than 60? Most of the same hands went up. Then he asked how many of the ones who did not have liturgical abuse going on in their parishes, how many had priests that were younger than 40 or 45. Can't remember the exact age. Most of those who did not have liturgical abuse had younger priests which would generally be the opposite of what would be expected since people get more conservative as they get older.

It will take time to flush the older, more liberal priests out of the system but in time it will happen. The gates of hell shall not prevail. We can place our hope in these words.

Blessings

[Guest Aluigi]

I don't blame Vatican II, I know it was all in place before and everyone expected the Church to liberalize. when it didn't, the liberals HIJACKED Vatican II and used it to spread their errors.

what I wish is that the Church had taken on the liberals more directly in Vatican II. that's what councils have done throughout the history of the CHurch-- combat heresy. i wish there had been ANATHEMAS pronounced and all that such. then the heterodox would be unable to stay within the Church and try to change it and hijacking the documents of Vatican II to spread an agenda completely outside of the Tradition of the Church.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jan 4 2005, 09:19 AM'] Why don't we quit dissing Vatican II.  It was a legitimate Ecumenical Council.  That it was pastoral in nature does not diminish it's legitimacy.  That the decrees of the council were distorted by liberals is not the fault of the council.  I have read much of the councilar and post councilar documents and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them, except when it is quoted out of context.  Embracing and implementing the wishes of the Council is the way to turn this around much like embracing, understanding, and implementing the decrees of the council of Nicea overcame Arianism, even though in the years after the council Arianism grew.

Blessings [/quote]
Who here has doubted the validity of Vatican II? I'm afraid no one has.

I agree with Aluigi. The reason for the significant drop in seminarians and the shattrering of unified belief is a result of the poor implementation of Vatican II.

I totally believe that Vatican II is a legitimate council led by the Holy Spirit.
It's obvious though that the Council underestimated the power of the growing liberal society. No one at the council would have thought that Latin today would be shunned, or that altar rails would be melted or that high altars would be crushed. No one thought that at all.

Under John Paul II, the Vatican has done a wonderful job in making the transition according to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. We now have a new Mass translation coming out in 2005 which will be a more literal translation of the original Latin text. John Paul has also ruled with an iron fist regarding the Euchartist. He has stated clearly that Holy Communion is the center of our faith and that we must treat the Eucharist with utmost respect.

In my opinion, the Catholic Church is on the rebound since Vatican II. We are gowing! My diocese, the Archdiocese of Galveston/Houston was just named an archdiocese days ago. Catholic schools are being built. Since the scandal in the priesthood, people are starting to realize that we must take our Church back. There are more seminarians this year than 2 years before. Slowly but surely, the Catholic Church will be flourishing with new members, flourishing with priests and nuns, and most of all, flourishing with people who all believe that every aspect of Catholicism is true.

May God Bless!

-conservativecatholic

Edited January 4, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Saying Vatican II is wrong because of how liberals interpret it is like saying religion is evil because so many horrible rulers used religion to suppress people and justify their actions. Evil rulers will be evil rulers with or without religion and liberals in the Catholic Church would be liberals whether or not Vatican II happened. In fact, as someone said above, Vatican II angered a lot of liberals because it didn't implement the changes they wanted.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 4 2005, 12:07 PM'] I don't blame Vatican II, I know it was all in place before and everyone expected the Church to liberalize. when it didn't, the liberals HIJACKED Vatican II and used it to spread their errors.

what I wish is that the Church had taken on the liberals more directly in Vatican II. that's what councils have done throughout the history of the CHurch-- combat heresy. i wish there had been ANATHEMAS pronounced and all that such. then the heterodox would be unable to stay within the Church and try to change it and hijacking the documents of Vatican II to spread an agenda completely outside of the Tradition of the Church. [/quote]
From my understanding there is good reason why Vatican II did not have anathames attached to it's decrees. The Council was pastoral in nature. It advanced no doctrines to dogma and so did not pronounce anathemas. However, the anathemas from previous councils on that which was dogma from the council still applied. I think this is perhaps where the disconnect is. Anethemas have not gone away.

[MC Just]

Here's a rap i wrote that will make a lot of people angry but oh well the truth hurts and thats the way it is. I say what I say in the rap because it is what i learned from studying about it.

GoodBye, Good Men (wounded)


I can’t stand to see what’s going, OUR Church in this country’s
Harmed, struck by a spiritual bomb, it’s hard to stay calm
When you clearly see the roots to many problems, know how to solve em
But WE’RE told to stay shut and pray for shalom,
WE’RE going to move until WE hit rock bottom
Wage war like anti-biotic to infection OUR church in America is
Infected with a secular pestilence
Orthodoxy is the medicine, the cure from the obscure, outside influences
The nuisance, plaguing our colleges and schools with liberal foolishness
So were wounded, the devil’s got us in his range and he’s zoomed in
Taking shots because he lost, and has nothing to lose, he’s uses politics
Like maze to get people lost in it, he urges man to glorify man, whisper’s God
Don’t exist; therefore we can all just do what we want,
The problems clear but they nonchalant
There own opinions more important than what Jesus taught,
The Faithful’s distraught
Priests caught in scandals, can’t handle fighting sin
Seminaries of hell condemning holy, Righteous men
SOME ARE SCREENED with heretic litmus tests
Orthodox called too rigid, thrown to the bench,
Good-bye, Good men,
While yet they made plenty of room for those who Dissent
The Church is not democracy; Catholics look to the Papal Theocracy
Bound by the cannon laws, many don’t want to hear or see,
They say “I’m catholic but I don’t wear my faith out on my sleeves”
Bad examples from Kennedy up in the 60’s, infiltration, desecration
What a tragedy, blasphemy shocked the nation, with this catastrophe
Liberal dioceses have a shortage of priests, while the orthodox flourish
Nourished by peace, why won’t they see?


Goodbye Good men,


Two generations of Holy men, rejected,
Men who could have been saints and blessed’s
Instead we got left with a bunch of child molesters,
Giving bad names to Priests who really
Rep the faith, yet liberals have the guts to say, what went wrong?
You have no room to talk You’re the ones who brought it on,
Talking tolerance, I say who you following?
Who you following, Mixing the church with devilish doctrines,
Trying change the faith that suppose to remain Constant,
Many men with a genuine calling thrown off by a façade,
Of the heterodox, the radical, squad leaving the church morally robbed,
For the sake of the sexual revolution,
Gay priests and Liturgical abuses, the intrusion,
of the serpent’s movement, talking progress,
But what they represent has proved to be the opposite
And it’s quite obvious, THE LOSS OF COMMON SENSE
Has become quite prominent, attacking celibacy
Saying that’s the cause of it, I hate to disappoint you
But you’re wrong once again, according to this
Reconnaissance, polluted consciousness is a large
Part of it, a mind state contrary to the Catholic Faith
Liberals only seem to perpetrate and exasperate
With vice, moral and doctrinal laxity
It’s sad to see, the hurt families
Of this calamity, some Catholics in America
done Lost their sanity, as the culture of “anything goes”
Consumes soul’s, and makes many churches it’s home
As they stroll away from Rome, and form their own abode
Of no restraint or control A healing’s coming,
an army of Christ’s Holy men Growing in numbers…

[thessalonian]

"Who here has doudted the validity of Vatican II?"

I didn't say anyone had. But statements like this blaming VII are not uncommon.

"Alot of it has to do with Vatican 2. "

And there are alot of ultra traditionalist Catholics (including my brother) who do bash VII and say it was heretical. On the catholicconvert.com board there is a moderator who has a trailer on all his posts "Gee thanks Vatican II". Vatican II is not the problem. The emphasis on education from Vatican II is the solution. It needs to be implemented. I see that happening slowly.

Blessings

Edited January 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[conservativecatholic]

[quote]Rep the faith, yet liberals have the guts to say, what went wrong?
You have no room to talk You’re the ones who brought it on, [/quote]

Right on MC!

I'm not a big fan of rap; however, this is great!

May God Bless!

By the way, is there any music to go along with this or some sort of recording?

This would be awesome for my confirmation class. I'm getting confirmed this June.

[MC Just]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Jan 4 2005, 01:04 PM']
Right on MC!

I'm not a big fan of rap; however, this is great!

May God Bless!

By the way, is there any music to go along with this or some sort of recording?

This would be awesome for my confirmation class. I'm getting confirmed this June. [/quote]
This song will be on my album titles "The Cross"

Edited January 4, 2005 by MC Just

[Lil Red]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jan 4 2005, 08:23 AM'] Parents whimp out and drop their kids' Catholic education after first Communion or so. Kids don't grow up Catholic without someone to look up to, and parents lately don't want to be that someone. [/quote]
as a youth minister, you have no idea how many times i hear the phrase "it's not worth the fight to get them to go". if your child's spiritual life, their very soul is not worth the fight, then what is? i'm trying hard to change that attitude, but it's hard....

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 4 2005, 12:51 AM'] Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965.
The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. [/quote]
... and the cost of tuition has tripled

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Jan 4 2005, 02:36 PM'] as a youth minister, you have no idea how many times i hear the phrase "it's not worth the fight to get them to go". if your child's spiritual life, their very soul is not worth the fight, then what is? i'm trying hard to change that attitude, but it's hard.... [/quote]
I find this really very discouraging. (I'm sure you do too!) It shocks me how many people just couldn't care less about thier children's spiritual upbringing. Kids go to school (well, most kids do anyway ) Would you just say, "well, I let him drop out in the third grade, cuz it just wasn't worth the hassle"?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jan 4 2005, 12:55 PM'] I find this really very discouraging. (I'm sure you do too!) It shocks me how many people just couldn't care less about thier children's spiritual upbringing. Kids go to school (well, most kids do anyway ) Would you just say, "well, I let him drop out in the third grade, cuz it just wasn't worth the hassle"? [/quote]
amen to that....

[Socrates]

Most people did not even bother to read Vatican II documents. People just used the council as an excuse to promote their own agendas "in the spirit of Vatican II." (a nonsensical phrase). Thus liberals did and taught all sorts of things not actually allowed by Vatican II, and some conservatives blamed the council itself for all the nonsense.

[Lil Red]

i hate that phrase...in the "spirit of vatican ii"

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jan 4 2005, 12:58 PM'] "Who here has doudted the validity of Vatican II?"

I didn't say anyone had.  But statements like this blaming VII are not uncommon.

"Alot of it has to do with Vatican 2. "

And there are alot of ultra traditionalist Catholics (including my brother) who do bash VII and say it was heretical.  On the catholicconvert.com board there is a moderator who has a trailer on all his posts "Gee thanks Vatican II".  Vatican II is not the problem.  The emphasis on education from Vatican II is the solution.  It needs to be implemented.  I see that happening slowly.

Blessings [/quote]
I agree and totally understand.

It bothers me when people, especially some traditionalists, accuse and slam Vatican II of being hereitcal. They are the reason for the countless and problematic schisms we have today, not the infallible Church of Christ.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, desired to reform the Church within as a response to the heretical Reformation. As a result, a number of abuses were put to rest and the Catholic Church regained much of its former glory as a respected insitution.

We need more Church leaders and laymen like St. Ignatius today.

I feel that Pope John Paul II as well as numerous Cardinals such as Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Dulles are modern St. Ignatiuses because of their steadfast determination to hault liturgical abuse after Vatican II and their courage to solve numerous incorrect interpretations of the Council. I pray that the next pope will too lead a great transitional period from Vatican II. Yes, we are still in transition.

People tend to forget that it takes years for a Council, especially the Second Vatican Council, to fully be examined and to fully be implememnted. The Church is still working out the kinks and in my opinion, they are doing a fabulous job.

May God Bless!

Edited January 4, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[Socrates]

The causes of the problem addressed in this thread or complex and different people have noted different causes of the problem.

However, I think the lack of orthodoxy is the root of this evil.
Many in the priesthood and the now-older generation turned away from the teachings of the Church in the '60s and '70s and started "doing their own thing."

A watered-down, liberalized "feel-good" Christianity will have no appeal to the youth or anyone else. What's the point? Why bother to go to church?

Parishes/dioceses/institutions that are orthodox are flourishing. Orthodox seminaries are producing man priests (while bad seminaries have a vocations crisis.) Orthodox colleges such as Christendom College produce many vocations.

Many will complain that these places are too small or few in number. However, they are the beginning of a revival. We should promote the revival, rather than fall into despair.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 4 2005, 03:34 PM'] The causes of the problem addressed in this thread or complex and different people have noted different causes of the problem.

However, I think the lack of orthodoxy is the root of this evil.
Many in the priesthood and the now-older generation turned away from the teachings of the Church in the '60s and '70s and started "doing their own thing."

A watered-down, liberalized "feel-good" Christianity will have no appeal to the youth or anyone else. What's the point? Why bother to go to church?

Parishes/dioceses/institutions that are orthodox are flourishing. Orthodox seminaries are producing man priests (while bad seminaries have a vocations crisis.) Orthodox colleges such as Christendom College produce many vocations.

Many will complain that these places are too small or few in number. However, they are the beginning of a revival. We should promote the revival, rather than fall into despair. [/quote]
Well stated.

A renaissance within the Church is slowly occuring in my opinion.

[Benedict]

The role of the Catholic lay apologist is fourfold: explain, defend, evangelize, and breed.

One hope we have is that liberals are self-destructive while the orthodox "go forth and multiply".

Proper education in the faith is one of our most vital goals as the distortion of the faith is the only chance of survival liberals have.

[Paladin D]

This is one of the main reasons why I'm being careful on discerning my vocation. Things like this would want me to join the priesthood just to "raise the numbers", but if I do it for that reason only... I won't be an effective priest.