more anti-papal arguments

[dairygirl4u2c]

I have another simple request to reach better focus than the last thread generated. I would like people here to give the arguments against the validity of the papacy that are 1. given by the orthodox and 2. that were given by the people in Newman's day.

Even if it's illogical, you can still give it. You can still give your own if you want, but I'm not here to see that. If I were grading you, I'd give more points to how well you explained the arguments against the papacy.

[Dreamweaver]

Asking for arguments against the papacy at a catholic phorum? Sorry, can't help ya out there, kind of like the pro-choice arguments thread.

Unless someone wants to play devil's advocate.

[Benedict]

Devil's Advocate:



"Conspiculously absent from ALL the church fathers is any reference to the Bishop of Rome as someone who could solve theological problems."

[Guest JeffCR07]

Edit: because Dairy doesnt want the response to the argument

Edited January 8, 2005 by JeffCR07

[Sinner]

Here we go again..............

[HomeTeamFamily]

point?

[jmjtina]

so if we oblige, will you defend?

seems only fair............

[Benedict]

For the record, my post above is an actual quote.

[crusader1234]

I maintain that the Pope is, indeed, a hologram

[Q the Ninja]

dairygirl, how early, for you, is the Church Fathers? I can easily find the word Pope used about 377. I'm just curious.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I can find the early use of the word pope for bishops other than the bishop of rome too. but anyway.


Okay well.. how's this.. if you argue the anti-papal arguments.. i'll argue the papal arguments.

But I have a feeling that I'll be the only one thoroughly representing the other side.. please don't let me be right!

Edited January 8, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Why on earth would we want to argue against the papacy? Is this supposed to be some exercise where we all sit around and wonder why we have a pope? Are we supposed to be doing "deep thinking" about our pope situation? Are you hoping for us to have some sort of "eureka" moment and come to some realization that we might not need a pope?

What are you hoping to accomplish with this thread?

[Guest JeffCR07]

Kilroy, that might be a bit harsh...


could it just be that she's interested in learning about arguments for/against the papacy, and, in all honesty, who better to go to than the "papists" themselves - I mean, if anyone "has heard 'em all" in terms of anti-papal arguments, its us, right?

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Sinner]

ummmmmm maybe.............. or not.

[Sinner]

either way, there's just some games that don't appeal to me.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'm hoping you all know the arguments. if you do, then you should be able to relay them back to me. if you don't then you'll be shown for. i'm not going for a eureka moment where you all convert, i'm goin for one maybe where you finally internalize the arguments. i don't think most here really understand the opposition.

perhaps i don't understand. i think i know pretty much the jist of all the arguments. but this exercise will let me be found out too.

and when i say give me the anti-papal arguments, i mean the historical arguments. philosophical too if you want, but that'll just get dense. let's stick with the facts and interpretations of them.


somebody wanna begin?

[drewmeister2]

May I ask if you are Catholic, dairygirl?

[cathqat]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jan 8 2005, 07:15 PM'] i'm not going for a eureka moment where you all convert, i'm goin for one maybe where you finally internalize the arguments. i don't think most here really understand the opposition. [/quote]
I grew up Protestant. I used to actually believe and proclaim Luther's idea that the Pope is the antichrist. Personally I think that's plenty "internalized" and "understanding"!

The problem is, I have not met any really "good arguments against the papacy," because all the ones I've ever seen fell away under reasonable scrutiny.

Does that help?

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 8 2005, 09:06 PM'] I grew up Protestant. I used to actually believe and proclaim Luther's idea that the Pope is the antichrist. Personally I think that's plenty "internalized" and "understanding"!

The problem is, I have not met any really "good arguments against the papacy," because all the ones I've ever seen fell away under reasonable scrutiny.

Does that help? [/quote]
You rock.

[dairygirl4u2c]

also... I want to expressly state my motive. I'm not looking for you to convert to anything per se. I am trying to make you internalize the arguments. I'm looking for this because I want you to understand all arguments before choosing a position theologically. i also hope that you begin to live Christ's true messages instead of just going through rituals and thinking you're doing God's will... if that's all you're doing i mean. If you can relay to me the best of the opposition and still want to be catholic, then I respect that like it's nobody's business. I'll disagree, but still respect.

in my opinion, this type of examination is what Jesus wants of all of us. i think i'm doing His will.




[quote]I grew up Protestant. I used to actually believe and proclaim Luther's idea that the Pope is the antichrist. Personally I think that's plenty "internalized" and "understanding"!

The problem is, I have not met any really "good arguments against the papacy," because all the ones I've ever seen fell away under reasonable scrutiny.

Does that help? [/quote]

because this is an epitome of an example that i always get.

the first argument isn't that great. if this is the extent that you know of.. then you better re-exam your beliefs.

even if they fall apart... give me your best!

Edited January 9, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c