Phish on Phriday's?

[PolyCarp of Smyrna]

[font="Arial"]I was recently watching EWTN and I saw a commercial on there where two gentlement were dining in a restraunt for lunch. The waitress was taking the orders and one of the men requests a hamburger and the other a fish sandwitch.

The one who requested the burger asks the other "We aren't still required to abstain from meat on Friday's except during Lent, are we? Vatican II changed that dicipline, didn't it?"

The man replies "What has changed is that now you can either abstain from meat on Fridays or perform a charitable act in lieu of abstinence. The requirement for piety on Friday's has not changed."

Now then, what's the real deal? The commercial did not supply the viewer with any references like CCC's or Vatican II documents or anything supporting the purported viewpoint.

Does any of you have any information about this?

If you do, please post it and provide references. I have NOT been supplanting works of mercy for abstinence on Fridays. I abstain from meat on Friday's only during the Lenten season because I have always understood that to be what the Church teaches.

I hope to hear from you soon.


Pax Christi,


Thom[/font] Edited January 6, 2005 by PolyCarp of Smyrna

[Lil Red]

Thom, [url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0184.html"]THIS[/url] is from the reference section. I will quote the pertinant part:

[quote]Moreover, we should recall that every Friday of the year outside Lent remains a day of penance. While each individual may substitute the traditional abstinence from meat for another practice of self-denial or personal penance, each person should strive to do some penance to atone for sin. (Cf Code of Canon Law, No. 1251).[/quote]

[quote][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM"]Vatican's site of Canon Law[/url]
CHAPTER II.
Days of Penance

Can.  1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.

Can.  1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

Can.  1251 Abstinence from eating meat or some other food according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops is to be observed on ,of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year of age. The law of fasting, however, binds all those who have attained their majority until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors of souls and parents are to take care that minors not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are also educated in a genuine sense of penance.

Can.  1253 The conference of bishops can determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence as well as substitute other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast.[/quote]

i hope this is helpful to you.

[PolyCarp of Smyrna]

[color=purple][font="Arial"]Thanks for the Info Lil Red.

Now two questions remain.

1. What has the USCCB declared regarding this matter

AND

2. What are the applicable Vatican II documents that amplify Cannon Law 1251


I think most of the Canon law was written at Trent, and while the dogma cannot change, the diciplines can, so exactly HOW did Vatican II modify the abstinence stipulation? What official document is illustratative of that?

Pax Christi,


Thom[/color][/font]

[Lil Red]

Thom, [url="http://www.usccb.org/dpp/penitential.htm"]Here[/url] is a statement from the USCCB concerning penitential practices.

[Lil Red]

Thom, from the USCCB's online catechism[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.htm#vi"](which is here)[/url]:

[quote]V. The Many Forms of Penance in Christian Life

1434
The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving,31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: efforts at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."32

1435
Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right,33 by the admission of faults to one's brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one's cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.34

1436
Eucharist and Penance. Daily conversion and penance find their source and nourishment in the Eucharist, for in it is made present the sacrifice of Christ which has reconciled us with God. Through the Eucharist those who live from the life of Christ are fed and strengthened. "It is a remedy to free us from our daily faults and to preserve us from mortal sins."35

1437
Reading Sacred Scripture, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and the Our Father—every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins.

[b]1438
The seasons and days of penance in the course of the liturgical year (Lent, and each Friday in memory of the death of the Lord) are intense moments of the Church's penitential practice.36 These times are particularly appropriate for spiritual exercises, penitential liturgies, pilgrimages as signs of penance, voluntary self-denial such as fasting and almsgiving, and fraternal sharing (charitable and missionary works).[/b]

1439
The process of conversion and repentance was described by Jesus in the parable of the prodigal son, the center of which is the merciful father:37 the fascination of illusory freedom, the abandonment of the father's house; the extreme misery in which the son finds himself after squandering his fortune; his deep humiliation at finding himself obliged to feed swine, and still worse, at wanting to feed on the husks the pigs ate; his reflection on all he has lost; his repentance and decision to declare himself guilty before his father; the journey back; the father's generous welcome; the father's joy—all these are characteristic of the process of conversion. The beautiful robe, the ring, and the festive banquet are symbols of that new life—pure, worthy, and joyful—of anyone who returns to God and to the bosom of his family, which is the Church. Only the heart of Christ who knows the depths of his Father's love could reveal to us the abyss of his mercy in so simple and beautiful a way.[/quote]

[Theoketos]

A good place to start is [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i] ([i]The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy[/i]

[quote]
109. The season of Lent has a twofold character: primarily by recalling or preparing for baptism and by penance, it disposes the faithful, who more diligently hear the word of God and devote themselves to prayer, to celebrate the paschal mystery. This twofold character is to be brought into greater prominence both in the liturgy and by liturgical catechesis. Hence:

a) More use is to be made of the baptismal features proper to the Lenten liturgy; some of them, which used to flourish in bygone days, are to be restored as may seem good.

b) The same is to apply to the penitential elements. As regards instruction it is important to impress on the minds of the faithful not only a social consequences of sin but also that essence of the virtue of penance which leads to the detestation of sin as an offence against God; the role of the Church in penitential practices is not to be passed over, and the people must be exhorted to pray for sinners.

110. During Lent penance should not be only internal and individual, but also external and social. The practice of penance should be fostered in ways that are possible in our own times and in different regions, and according to the circumstances of the faithful; it should be encouraged by the authorities mentioned in Art. 22.

Nevertheless, let the paschal fast be kept sacred. Let it be celebrated everywhere on Good Friday and, where possible, prolonged throughout Holy Saturday, so that the joys of the Sunday of the resurrection may be attained with uplifted and clear mind.[/quote]

Also, St. Benedict surely laid the foundation for fasting in his rule:

[quote]
CHAPTER XLIX
On the Keeping of Lent

The life of a monk ought always to be a Lenten observance. However, since such virtue is that of few, we advise that during these days of Lent he guard his life with all purity and at the same time wash away during these holy days all the shortcomings of other times. This will then be worthily done, if we restrain ourselves from all vices. Let us devote ourselves to tearful prayers, to reading and compunction of heart, and to abstinence.

During these days, therefore, let us add something to the usual amount of our service, special prayers, abstinence from food and drink, that each one offer to God "with the joy of the Holy Ghost" (1 Thes 1:6), of his own accord, something above his prescribed measure; namely, let him withdraw from his body somewhat of food, drink, sleep, speech, merriment, and with the gladness of spiritual desire await holy Easter.

Let each one, however, make known to his Abbot what he offereth and let it be done with his approval and blessing; because what is done without permission of the spiritual father will be imputed to presumption and vain glory, and not to merit. Therefore, let all be done with the approval of the Abbot. [/quote]


Ave Maria,

James III

[Lil Red]

And on paragraph 1438, in the notes (Cf. SC 109-110; CIC, cann. 1249-1253; CCEO, cann. 880-883.)

Sacrosanctum concilium 109-110:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html"](From the Vatican's site)[/url]

[quote]109. The season of Lent has a twofold character: primarily by recalling or preparing for baptism and by penance, it disposes the faithful, who more diligently hear the word of God and devote themselves to prayer, to celebrate the paschal mystery. This twofold character is to be brought into greater prominence both in the liturgy and by liturgical catechesis. Hence:

a) More use is to be made of the baptismal features proper to the Lenten liturgy; some of them, which used to flourish in bygone days, are to be restored as may seem good.

b) The same is to apply to the penitential elements. As regards instruction it is important to impress on the minds of the faithful not only a social consequences of sin but also that essence of the virtue of penance which leads to the detestation of sin as an offence against God; the role of the Church in penitential practices is not to be passed over, and the people must be exhorted to pray for sinners.

110. During Lent penance should not be only internal and individual, but also external and social. The practice of penance should be fostered in ways that are possible in our own times and in different regions, and according to the circumstances of the faithful; it should be encouraged by the authorities mentioned in Art. 22.

Nevertheless, let the paschal fast be kept sacred. Let it be celebrated everywhere on Good Friday and, where possible, prolonged throughout Holy Saturday, so that the joys of the Sunday of the resurrection may be attained with uplifted and clear mind.[/quote]


CIC (Code of Canon Law) 1249-1253 [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM"]From the Vatican's Site:[/url]

[quote]CHAPTER II.
Days of Penance

Can.  1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.

Can.  1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

Can.  1251 Abstinence from eating meat or some other food according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops is to be observed on ,of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year of age. The law of fasting, however, binds all those who have attained their majority until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors of souls and parents are to take care that minors not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are also educated in a genuine sense of penance.

Can.  1253 The conference of bishops can determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence as well as substitute other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast.[/quote]

[Theoketos]

Lil red, I think we owned this thread....

[Lil Red]

yeah, we rock!

[phatcatholic]

yea..........excellent job everyone!!

[Lil Red]

i also found some more information on abstinence and fasting laws for the united states [url="http://216.247.160.99/law/afusa.shtml"]found here.[/url]

[quote]Lent has had a different history than Advent among us. Beginning with the powerful lesson of Ash Wednesday, it has retained its ancient appeal to the penitential spirit of our people. It has also acquired elements of popular piety which we bishops would wish to encourage.

Accordingly, while appealing for greater development of the understanding of the Lenten liturgy, as that of Advent, we hope that the observance of Lent as the principal season of penance in the Christian year will be intensified. This is the more desirable because of new insights into the central place in Christian faith of those Easter mysteries for the understanding and enjoyment of which Lent is the ancient penitential preparation.

Wherefore, we ask, urgently and prayerfully, that we, as people of God, make of the entire Lenten season a period of special penitential observance. Following the instructions of the Holy See, we declare that the obligation both to fast and to abstain from meat, an obligation observed under a more strict formality by our fathers in the faith, still binds on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. No Catholic Christian will lightly excuse himself from so hallowed an obligation on the Wednesday which solemnly opens the Lenten season and on Friday called "Good" because on that day Christ suffered in the flesh and died for our sins.

In keeping with the letter and spirit of Pope Paul's constitution Pænitemini, we preserve for our dioceses the tradition of abstinence from meat on each of the Fridays of Lent, confident that no Catholic Christian will lightly hold himself excused from this penitential practice.

For all other weekdays of Lent, we strongly recommend participation in daily Mass and a self-imposed observance of fasting. In the light of grave human needs which weigh on the Christian conscience in all seasons, we urge particularly during Lent, generosity to local, national, and world programs of sharing of all things needed to translate our duty to penance into a means of implementing the right of the poor to their part in our abundance. We also recommend spiritual studies, beginning with the Scriptures as well as the traditional Lenten devotions (sermons, Stations of the Cross, and the Rosary) and all the self-denial summed up in the Christian concept of "mortification."[/quote]


[quote]Christ died for our salvation on Friday.

[b]Gratefully remembering this, Catholic peoples from time immemorial have set apart Friday for special penitential observance by which they gladly suffer with Christ that they may one day be glorified with him. This is the heart of the tradition of abstinence from meat on Fridays where that tradition has been observed in the holy Catholic Church.[/b]

Changing circumstances, including economic, dietary, and social elements, have made some of our people feel that the renunciation of the eating of meat is not always and for everyone the most effective means of practicing penance. Meat was once an exceptional form of food; now it is common-place.

[b]Accordingly, since the spirit of penance primarily suggests that we discipline ourselves in that which we enjoy most, to many in our day abstinence from meat no longer implies penance, while renunciation of other things would be more penitential.[/b]

For these and related reasons, the Catholic bishops of the United States, far from downgrading the traditional penitential observance of Friday, and motivated precisely by the desire to give the spirit of penance greater vitality, especially on Fridays, the day that Jesus died, urge our Catholic people henceforth to be guided by the following norms:

[b]1. Friday itself remains a special day of penitential observance throughout the year, a time when those who seek perfection will be mindful of their personal sins and the sins of mankind which they are called upon to help expiate in union with Christ Crucified;[/b]

[b]2. Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday by freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ;[/b]

[b]3. Among the works of voluntary self-denial and personal penance which we especially commend to our people for the future observances of Friday, even though we hereby terminate the traditional law of abstinence as binding under pain of sin[/b], as the sole prescribed means of observing Friday, we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat. [b]We do so in the hope that the Catholic community will ordinarily continue to abstain from meat by free choice as formerly we did in obedience to Church law.[/b] Our expectation is based on the following considerations:

a. We shall thus freely and out of love for Christ Crucified show our solidarity with the generations of believers to whom this practice frequently became, especially in times of persecution and of great poverty, no mean evidence of fidelity in Christ and his Church.

b. We shall thus also remind ourselves that as Christians, although immersed in the world and sharing its life, we must preserve a saving and necessary difference from the spirit of the world. Our deliberate, personal abstinence from meat, more especially because no longer required by law, will be an outward sign of inward spiritual values that we cherish.

[b]Every Catholic Christian understands that the fast and abstinence regulations admit of change, unlike the commandments and precepts of that unchanging divine moral law which the Church must today and always defend as immutable.[/b] This said, we emphasize that our people are henceforth free from obligation, traditionally binding, under pain of sin in what pertains to Friday abstinence, except as noted above for Lent. [b]We stress this so that no scrupulosity will enter into examinations of conscience, confessions, or personal decisions on this point.[/b]

[b]Perhaps we should warn those who decide to keep Friday abstinence for reasons of personal piety and special love that they must not pass judgment on those who elect to substitute other penitential observances.[/b] Friday, please God, will acquire among us other forms of penitential witness which may become as much a part of the devout way of life in the future as Friday abstinence from meat. In this connection we have foremost in mind the modern need for self-discipline in the use of stimulants and for a renewed emphasis on the virtue of temperance, especially in the use of alcoholic beverages.

[b]It would bring great glory to God and good to souls if Fridays found our people doing volunteer work in hospitals, visiting the sick, serving the needs of the aged and the lonely, instructing the young in the faith, participating as Christians in community affairs, and meeting our obligations to our families, our friends, our neighbors, and our community, including our parishes, with a special zeal born of the desire to add the merit of penance to the other virtues exercised in good works born of living faith.[/b]

In summary, let it not be said that by this action, implementing the spirit of renewal coming out of the Council, we have abolished Friday, repudiated the holy traditions of our fathers, or diminished the insistence of the Church on the fact of sin and the need for penance. Rather, let it be proved by the spirit in which we enter upon prayer and penance, not excluding fast and abstinence freely chosen, that these present decisions and recommendations of this conference of bishops will herald a new birth of loving faith and more profound penitential conversion, by both of which we become one with Christ, mature sons of God and servants of God's people.[/quote]

Edited January 6, 2005 by Lil Red

[PolyCarp of Smyrna]

Great information! Thank you all so much.

Moving on to the nitty gritty, TOMORROW is Friday.

Would anyone mind telling me specifically what is going to comprise your penetential endeavors tomorrow? I mean, HOW exactly are you going to observe and practice all that you have just posted?

I am going to have to be creative. Maybe I'll just fast or something.

I'm looking forward to hearing more from you all.

Pax Christi,

Thom

[Lil Red]

-_- i have found that i am not so good at implementing, unfortunately. i know some of my friends still abstain from meat, others do corporal or spiritual works of mercy, etc.

[Theoketos]

Well, I try to fast from meat, but I often eat out with Protestants/ Mediocre Catholic Family Memembers. In these cases it is important to be a good guest, that is not to comprimise thier hospitality, so I try to say an extra rosary, or hour of adoration, if I do happen to eat meat. The key is to do a little more.

[Theoketos]

Oh yeah, if you are of drinking age, beer is great to give up on Fridays...

[Lil Red]

amen to that, theo...do more....maybe Fridays could be a day of volunteer work.

[phatcatholic]

i would try doing little things to deny yourself throughout the day:

--park farther away, instead of picking the closest spot
--don't eat until ur full, or fast in some way
--let someone in front of you in traffic
--wake up an extra half-hour early and pray or read the bible
--do an extra chore around the house
--of course, if anyone asks a favor of you, you would do it

....basically, anything you can do to deny yourself and sanctify the day

mass is also good too

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[cathqat]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 6 2005, 04:09 PM'] --park farther away, instead of picking the closest spot
--don't eat until ur full, or fast in some way
--let someone in front of you in traffic
--wake up an extra half-hour early and pray or read the bible
--do an extra chore around the house
--of course, if anyone asks a favor of you, you would do it
[/quote]
You could also add more positive things to this list, like these:

--Be especially conscious of sales clerks, restaurant servers, librarians, and other people in service jobs, and show your gratitude.
--Be especially generous with your time, money, assistance, and other resources. Don't just wait until you are asked, but actually offer.

Edited January 6, 2005 by cathqat

[MC Just]

hmmmm, CATFISH!!!!!!