Krush2k2 Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 1.)If Heaven is essentially perfect, why would the devil(Lucifer and the fallen angels, etc..) want to start a war within it? Speaking of the war in heaven. Why would pride, a start for sin, even be existent in that Consciousness? 2)Technically Angels sinned before man, correct?(Lucifer rejected God's power and omnipotence) Does that mean angels arent created in perfect nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 (edited) First off, I think the angels situation when they were created was similar to man's in that they were in the prescence of God but something had to change for them to be fully in heaven. They may have been on this earth for their test like man was but in God's prescence also like Adam and Eve. The angels had their own test like Adam and Eve did in the garden. Some say that the Lucifer and the rest balked at God's plan of salvation for man by having the savior born of a woman. Whatever it was, no, the angels were created with a perfect natures just as man was. They had free will. Adam and Eve had perfect natures before the fall. Sin corrupted them. In fact angels unlike us have individual natures. Man has one nature. Sin corrupted the Angels who became devils. They however were only given one chance at sin. i.e. they were immediately thrown out of the heavens with one sin. No second chance. Then as I understand it they were cast down upon the earth. According to Brunno Webb's book "Why does God permit Evil" the fallen angels over time were able to change the earth such there were earthquakes, storms, and animals ate eachother. These things were not due to the fall of man. He cites Augustine and Aquinas and others as sources for these theories so they are not just his own ideas but have pretty good theological background. I highly recommend the book. Edited January 7, 2005 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I would also like to comment on the notion of heaven being "perfect." In many ways, this statement is true, but in many others, it is not. If one means that it is perfect in that Sin cannot abide in the presence of God, then heaven is perfect. However, if one means that heaven is complete and perfect happiness, then one would be in error. The notion of heaven being complete and perfect happiness is the effect of Protestant (or, really, gnostic) influence on the uncatechized. As our Holy Father John Paul II tells us, even the souls in heaven yearn for something. They yearn for their bodies. They yearn, along with all the Angels, for the Second Coming of Christ and the Ressurrection. [i]Then[/i], when heaven and earth are united in a New Heaven and a New Earth, and only then, will there be perfect and complete happiness. At this point, only Mary, who was assumed bodily into heaven, could be posited to be perfectly happy, and even then, I would argue that she yearns for the Second Coming for the sake of her children. Anyways, sorry about that, just felt the need to post that. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.R.D Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 LOL yea dude what they sad LOL ... I was pretty much ganna say that LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krush2k2 Posted January 9, 2005 Author Share Posted January 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 7 2005, 06:55 PM'] I would also like to comment on the notion of heaven being "perfect." In many ways, this statement is true, but in many others, it is not. If one means that it is perfect in that Sin cannot abide in the presence of God, then heaven is perfect. However, if one means that heaven is complete and perfect happiness, then one would be in error. [/quote] Agreed-then what would spark anything sin related within the Angels consiousness? Sin was existent then persay, before man. So then the the link attributed to Adam(original sin) for humans-the act originally was a concept before him Why then if heaven is perfect in a sense of no sin-how could the notion of sin even be existent in the consiousness of Angels? Edited January 9, 2005 by Krush2k2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianny01 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 The angels were given free will. With free will comes the potential to sin. Sincerely, Ianny01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Krush this is quite an interesting topic. What might really help to read is in the Summa Theologica the sections on Angels it may give you a better understanding especially about the free-will of Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krush2k2 Posted January 9, 2005 Author Share Posted January 9, 2005 Yes but the union with God in heaven, Angels free will and rebellion proves heaven had a capacity for sin-yet why would this be even possible within such a union? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Lucifer's sin was motivated by hubris and envy. I am not sure how those arose but, once they did, union with God would not be a pleasure but a pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krush2k2 Posted January 9, 2005 Author Share Posted January 9, 2005 Adam and Eve Sinned therefore, I am automatically born in original sin. How then if Lucifer sinned, angels aren't in the prescense of Original Sin and culpable for that? If it carried through the line of humans, would the link not apply to angels as well. And if they were created in a perfect union with God to serve him, why would the notion of anything sinful become existent-even in the state of free will, if they were in the prescence of perfect good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianny01 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Lucifer was not the ancestor of all angels as Adam and Eve are the ancestors of humans. Therefore, Lucifer's sin does not carry over to other angels like the Original Sin for us. Sincerely, Ianny01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 What he said. We are all descended from Adam and Eve. Our first parents, and all parents since, cooperate in God's creation of new human life through procreation. The angels do not procreate. Their entirety is directly created by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 I believe I was taught in theology class that the angels were not created with the full Beatific Vision ( which would make it impossible for them to turn against God). At the moment of creation, they were in the presence of God in a sense, but did not share in the full awareness of God's full glory. At the moment of their creation, the angels had the choice to choose to follow God (and thus share in the Beatific Vision) or reject Him (and thus choose damnation). We must remeber that angels do not exist in time in the sense that humans and other physical beings do. and their wills cannot change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Krush, a few points. First, Aquinas teaches us, as well as the Holy Father in his [i]Theology of the Body[/i] that the souls of Angels are each unique and individual in the extreme - there is no such thing as "angelic souls" while there are "human souls." Each human soul is fundamentally linked to all other human souls while retaining its distinction as being individual (for example, all human souls are either male or female, and this is an aspect of "human souls" in general, whereas no generalizations can be made about the souls of Angels). Thus, the sin of one angel (Lucifer) had no fundamental bearing on the sin of another Angel. Also, in reply to Benedict, sin is not transmitted through the sexual act of procreation, but rather, is inherited by virtue of the fact that our souls are human souls, as we are taught by St. Anselm in [i]Cur Deus Homo[/i]. Finally, Socrates is correct to note that Angels were not created with the full Beatific Vision, Angels exercised their free will at the moment of their creation, making a single eternal choice as to whether or not, for the rest of eternity, their wills would coincide with the Will of God, or rebel against it. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff PS, I'm not really sure about this, I would need to check Aquinas, but I was also under the impression that even now the Angels do not have the full Beatific vision, and that their rank determines how much of God's Truth they are capable of seeing (Angels seeing the least, and therefore interacting with humans the most, and Seraphim see the most, and interacting with humans the least). However, like I said, I am not positive on that point, so I should probably check up on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 [quote]Also, in reply to Benedict, sin is not transmitted through the sexual act of procreation, but rather, is inherited by virtue of the fact that our souls are human souls, as we are taught by St. Anselm in [i]Cur Deus [/i]Homo.[/quote] I was not saying that is how original sin is transmitted. I was showing how we know from nature that humanity is linked back to its first parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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