No Salvation Outside the Church

[phatcatholic]

awesome, thanks bro

[franciscanheart]

again...........

[goldenchild17]

Can you clarify 2 things please

1. what is the doctrine of " Invincible ignorance "

2. does " outside the church" mean outside the Catholic Church or outside the universal church of believers?


and...

If it means that there is " no salvation outside the Catholic Church", then what does the following mean?
The Council's Decree on Ecumenism... the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities.......Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 9 2005, 01:11 AM']Can you clarify 2 things please

1. what is the doctrine of " Invincible ignorance"[/quote]
Invincible ignorance is simply ignorance for which a man is not culpable.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 9 2005, 01:11 AM']2. does "outside the church" mean outside the Catholic Church or outside the universal church of believers?[/quote]
As the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council taught:

"Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth.' [i]This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him[/i], although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity." [Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution [u]Lumen Gentium[/u], no. 8]

In the mid 1980s the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed the teaching of Vatican II when it issued a notification on the defective theology of Fr. Leonardo Boff. In the notification the Congregation said that ". . . there is only one subsistence of the Church, [and] the council had chosen the word [i]subsistit[/i] (subsists) exactly in order to make clear that one sole [i]subsistence[/i] of the true church exists, whereas outside her visible structure only [i]elementa ecclesiae[/i] (elements of church) exist; these [i]being elements of the same Church[/i] tend and conduct toward the Catholic Church ([u]Lumen Gentium[/u], 8)." [CDF [u]Notification on Father Leonardo Boff[/u], issued 11 March 1985] Thus the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of St. Peter, is the sole subsistence of the Church of Christ.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Jan 9 2005, 01:11 AM']and...

If it means that there is "no salvation outside the Catholic Church", then what does the following mean?

The Council's Decree on Ecumenism... the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities . . .  Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church."[/quote]
As indicated above, there are [i]elementa ecclesiae[/i] outside the visible structure of the one Holy Catholic Church, but those elements of grace are directed toward and gain their efficacy from the one Church which is Christ's Body; and as a consequence, those graces found outside the visible structure of the Catholic Church induce all men to enter into full communion with the one Catholic Church governed by the Pope.

[thessalonian]

"the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities.......Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. "

First of all when the Church speaks of ecumenism it is speaking with regard to other Christian religions. Especially the Orthodox. There are elements of truth (which are in fact consistent with Catholicism and therefore Catholic) which are in all men.

Romans 2:13-15
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



One of these truths is with regard to the sacrament of baptism which works no different in a Protestant or Orthodox as in a Catholic as long as they are not obstinately and willfully in separation with the Catholic Church, though they may be out of ignorance. Thus baptism Sanctifies in all men who partake of it in the manner the Church intends or according to the mind of Christ. Orthodox also have the six other sacraments as valid, which sanctify. Those who do not WILLFULLY reject Christ, knowing and understanding some truth about him and the Church, are in an imperfect way joined to the Church. There is no salvation Outside the Church.

[thessalonian]

When I get back from Mass I will post some of what Aquinas has to say on this that should clear things up a bit.

[thessalonian]

It is important to trust that the Church is wiser than us. This does not mean that the Churches teaching is beyond reason. But that some of submission to it has to be based on faith. For instance, not even the Pope and all the magesterium understand the Trinity, yet it is not beyond reason to believe that it is true.

As promised Aquinas:
Here is something I posted from another board regarding Aquinas on these topics, i.e. baptism, No Salvation outside the Church, Invincible ignorance,etc. etc.

He does not say that all baptisms of those who are not visibly Catholic are graceless. He does indicate that those who have "right faith" can recieve the sanctifying grace of baptism. In his Q68 Art. 8 Reply Obj 1: "Our Lord is speaking thereof Baptism as bringing us to salvation by giving us sanctifying grace: whic of course cannot be without right faith....". ..

In reply obj 2 he defines what right faith means by giving the Churches intention of baptism for the remission of sins and says in reply 3 "Even he who has not right faith on other points can have right faith about the sacrement of Baptism: and so he is not hindered from having the intention of recieveing the sacrement. Yet even if he think not aright concering this sacrement, it is enough, for the recieveing of the sacrement that he should have a general intention of recieving baptism., according as Christ instituted and the Chruch bestows it.".

A sacrement is defined of course as an outward sign of inward GRACE. So the grace is not held back from such a person as you claim. Now this understanding of mine regarding the Summa explanation is confirmed by what he further says back in Reply to Obj 2 "If on the contrary, anyone without right faith recieve Baptism outside the Church, he does not recieve it unto salvatoin". Once again it is clear in context that right faith is that he believes his baptism is for the remission of sins, or at least to be baptized as Christ instituted the sacrement. You overstated the position of the Summa. He even says that one with no faith can be baptized. Once again such a baptism would not be unto salvation, i.e. it would not confer sanctifying grace. Now I am clear on the issue and incidently right back where I started in this regard. Protestant baptisms are valid and can be efficasious, conferring santifying grace.

Here are the links which I take my information from to his online Summa Theologica.


[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406808.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406808.htm[/url]

Also of interest: "Whether a man can be saved Without baptism"

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406802.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406802.htm[/url]


They are well worth a read. Note in the baptism one that it really is no different with regard to doctrinal adherence if a man is being baptized in a Catholic vs. a Protestant Church. In fact there really is no such thing as a Protestant baptism.

Blessings
Blessings

[phatcatholic]

dude, where have you been all my life.........

[FutureSoror]

I find this to be a helpful summary of how that phrase should be correctly understood:


If anyone is saved outside of the Catholic Church, it is because of a connection with the Church in some way, whether the person knows it or not.

[thessalonian]

oops

Edited January 14, 2005 by thessalonian

[Guest BigMac284]

This is what [i]Dominus Iesus [/i]has to say on this topic:


20. From what has been stated above, some points follow that are necessary for theological reflection as it explores the relationship of the Church and the other religions to salvation.

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

21. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83 Theologians are seeking to understand this question more fully. Their work is to be encouraged, since it is certainly useful for understanding better God's salvific plan and the ways in which it is accomplished. However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”84 which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men — which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour — it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.

Certainly, the various religious traditions contain and offer religious elements which come from God,85 and which are part of what “the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures, and religions”.86 Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God.87 One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.93 One understands then that, following the Lord's command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life”.94

In inter-religious dialogue as well, the mission ad gentes “today as always retains its full force and necessity”.95 “Indeed, God ‘desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the promptings of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary”.96 Inter-religious dialogue, therefore, as part of her evangelizing mission, is just one of the actions of the Church in her mission ad gentes.97 Equality, which is a presupposition of inter-religious dialogue, refers to the equal personal dignity of the parties in dialogue, not to doctrinal content, nor even less to the position of Jesus Christ — who is God himself made man — in relation to the founders of the other religions. Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom,98 must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.