The Church and Money

[at0m1c]

[url="http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1995archive/122_3/35business.html"]The business of religion[/url]

What is your rebuttal to this?

Oh yeah, is it true that the church owes a lot of money?

[phatcatholic]

these aricles may help:
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/answers2.html"]Questions on Polilcies and Practices[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/not.html"]Some Things that Catholics Do [i]Not[/i] Believe[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicoutlook.com/objections.html"]Common Objections[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/WORLDLINESS.htm"]Responding to the "Wealth" and "Worldliness" of the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://davidmacd.com/catholic/isn_church_rich.htm"]Isn't the Church Rich?[/url]

Edited January 9, 2005 by phatcatholic

[thessalonian]

Well this verse is usually what comes to mind.

John 12:3-6
Mary then took a pound of very costly perfume of pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, *said,
"Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?"
Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.

People who write such nonsense have little concern for truth, honor and worship of God, sacrifice, or the salvatoin of souls. They need to be convicted of their own sinfulness before they understand any answer you might send them.


Blessings

[thessalonian]

It does look like his data is skewed to put a sinister looking spin on things. Boys town for instance does not just care for the 900 that are there:

In 2003, a record number of children -******* 41,906********** - received help, healing and hope from Girls and Boys Town’s direct care programs at 16 sites in 12 states and in the District of Columbia. More than****** 230,000**** children and families were helped through the Girls and Boys Town National Hotline, and more than 1.1 million more were served through outreach and professional training programs last year. Girls and Boys Town’s National Headquarters and largest child-care facility are located at the world-famous, historic Village of Boys Town in Nebraska.

Wonder if he has ever been there and looked at the lavish living of the priests and the limosines that they drive around in? The luxurious accomodations. Not likely.

Blessings

Edited January 9, 2005 by thessalonian

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='at0m1c' date='Jan 9 2005, 10:20 AM'] [url="http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1995archive/122_3/35business.html"]The business of religion[/url]

What is your rebuttal to this?

Oh yeah, is it true that the church owes a lot of money? [/quote]
i want to paste the article you have provided, and show how utterly weak it is:


[quote][b]The Business of Religion[/b]
by Bolder Landry

The number of people who drift from one new quackery to another, wasting their income in futile search of health and happiness, will probably never be known. Instead of preventing mental growth, religions should teach love of life. The feeling of life's preciousness and the desire to foster and further it should be the goal.[/quote]
agreed


[quote][b]Origin of Church Wealth[/b]

To know how organized religion has become big business, one has to look back to antiquity. Religious exceptions and preferences were first claimed by those who represented the supernatural powers that they alone were empowered to oversee. Churches, synagogues, and temples pay no taxes because of a variety of gimmicks. Here are a few examples of how the monetary power of churches originated:[/quote]
why is this the church's fault. its the state that has established these exemptions, b/c church's are charitable bodies that benefit society emmensely. but anyway, lets look at his treatment of the history of monetary power, shall we?

[quote]1. Under the Egyptian Pharaohs, land, revenues and treasures were all tax-free. Pagan Rome adhered to its church-state separation until 313 A.D. when emperor Constantine surfaced. His edict of Toleration (306) gave Christianity parity with pagan religions. With the Council of Nicaea (325), the Catholic Church became wealthy through pagan decrees, tax exemptions and immunity from military service. The wealth of those who died without heirs went to the Church. Pagan temples were turned over to the Catholic Church, and generous support was often provided from state revenues.[/quote]
what's dangerous about articles like this is that people who want to believe what he is saying will believe it w/o every demanding proof from the author. there are no footnotes to this article. he has sorted no documents. this is merely some "exceptional scholar's" (see the note at the end) opinion. pagan decrees? he doesn't even quote the "pagan decrees" in question. the documents from the Council of Nicaea are easily accessible. it would take very little effort for him to substantiate his claims. the fact that he does not speaks volumes as to the integrety of his "scholarship." and, as i said before, i'm not seeing what is so scandalous about a tax exemption.


[quote]2. The second source of Catholic wealth comes with Pope Gregory the Great (590-604). In the sixth century this pope was the greatest slave and landowner in the world. He announced the "end of the world," at which time slaveowners were told to turn their money and property over to the Church.[/quote]
proof please?

to counter the claim that the church approved of slavery, see the following articles:
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=707"]Slavery[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm"]Slavery and Christianity[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14039a.htm"]Ethical Aspect of Slavery[/url]
--[url="http://users.binary.net/polycarp/slave.html"]Slavery and the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=963"]The Popes and Slavery: A Book Review[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.htm"]The Popes and Slavery: Setting the Record Straight[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=706"]Let My People Go: The Catholic Church and Slavery[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=4041"]Ending the "Slavocracy"[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4913"][i]Catholicae Ecclesiae[/i] (On Slavery In The Missions)[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4842"][i]In Plurimis[/i] (On The Abolition Of Slavery)[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5745"][i]Sublimus Dei[/i] (On the Enslavement and Evangelization of Indians in the New World)[/url]
--[url="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/128/53.0.html"]The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery[/url]


[quote]3. The Inquisition was invented to rob the rich of their possessions. (Missionaries to Hawaii: "They came to do good and they did well.") The Inquisition was itself a scramble for gold divided three ways_the third part went to the Pope. Thus the burning of millions of heretics for their money and properties was the doing of the popes.[/quote]
this is our "exceptional scholar" at work? do i even need to respond to this? our "scholar" needs to do his research. he can start here:

--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=977"]Beyond the Myth of the Inquisition: Ours Is the Golden Age[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=957"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=979"]Inquisition in the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=975"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=959"]The Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=958"]The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3930"]The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=2719"]The Role of the Inquisition in Europe[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ366.HTM"]The Inquisition: Its Purpose and Rationale Within the Mediæval Worldview[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/~frjoe/inquisition.htm"]The Inquisition and the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT"]A New Look at the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=647"]The Spanish Inquisiton: Fact vs. Fiction[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article1.html"]Remote Motes and Present Beams: The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article3.html"]A New Industry: The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article5.html"]Inquisition on the Web[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column1.html"]Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=695"]Inquisition Requires Calm, Objective Analysis[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_105.htm"]The "Holy" or "Bloody" Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/militantis/inquisition2.html"]The Holy Inquisition: Myth or Reality?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cuf.org/nonmemb/inquichurch.pdf"]Inquisition in the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/inquist.htm"]The Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INQUIS2.htm"]Inquisitive about the Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column3.html"]One Cheer for Inquisitions[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INQUISIT.htm"]Questions Concerning the Spanish Inquisition[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column2.html"]Tough Love[/url]


[quote]4. As for the Crusades, the Holy Land and the Holy Sepulcher were there. So was gold![/quote]
what is overwhelming as a catholic apologist is that one sentence can do a world of damage, but it takes thousands of words to undo what has been done:

--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm"]Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3387"]Crusade Myths[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3209"]Crusade Propaganda: The Abuse of Christianity's Holy Wars[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3225"]Crusading They Went: The Deeds and Misdeeds of Our Spiritual Kin[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3099"]Rethinking the Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3089"]Objective Analysis of the Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3307"]The Battle Over the Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=968"]The Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3095"]History and Apologetic for the Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3386"]The Crusades and Their Critics[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3366"]The Real History of the Crusades[/url]
--[url="ftp://members.aol.com/kcc1tim/Crusades.txt"]The Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.cuf.org/member/crusades.pdf"]"If I Forget You, Oh Jerusalem": The Truth about the Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/crusades.html"]Apologia: The Crusades[/url]
--[url="http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/crusades2.html"]Crusades: Truth and Black Legend[/url]
--[url="http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-maddenprint110201.html"]Crusade Propaganda[/url]
--[url="http://www.chesterton.org/gkc/historian/crusade.html"]The Meaning of the Crusade[/url]


[quote]5. From 1503 to 1600 the conquerors stole from the New World an estimated 225,000 pounds of gold and 15 million pounds of silver. The Church received her share of the loot, plus Indian land, buildings and slave workers (The Conquistadors, 1957, p. 377).[/quote]
a reference!! i'm shocked.......but maybe i shouldn't be. and if the user of the source is any indication, then we can pretty much bet that "The Conquistadors" approaches history w/ an obvious anti-catholic prejudice. as for the actual claim made here, it would require me to investigate the source. spathariossa could probably help us w/ this one (and actually, w/ the entire article).


[quote]6. Next to simony, traffic in sacred things, the sale of hierarchical office including the papal tiara, was the sale of indulgences. This resulted in immense revenues for the Church (Forgery In Christianity, 1992, p. 390). This abuse led Martin Luther to examine the doctrine of purgatory (an imaginary hot spot) and indulgences for relief from the sufferings in purgatory.

7. During colonial days churches became powerful and wealthy after the Revolution. They pressed for special legislation and by 1835 churches began to be granted tax exemption to church property. (Freedom Under Siege, 1974, p. 37).

[b]Modern Church Revenues[/b]

Presently the IRS Section 501 © (3) exempts all churches in every state from taxation provided they do not engage in "political or legislative activity." Churches may be subject to audit and taxation on their church-unrelated business income beginning in 1976. But gobbledygook Code insertions say, "No one is authorized to take note of this fact." (The Religious Empire, 1976, p. 30.) Churches are not required to file reports with the IRS or any other authority. "The Vatican is the largest financial operation in the world." (Ibid. p. 220.)

Today the Catholic Church has over 150 dioceses in the U.S. This includes about 20,000 churches with an estimated 38,000 priests, 13 cardinals, and more than 200 bishops. These all control 58 million Catholics. One can see how the sacrosanctness of religion keeps racking in hundreds of millions each year tax-free. And there is more!

After World War II churches profited from the government's giveaway of free land and buildings, tax-free. Religious real estate values in the last 30 years have risen to multimillions of dollars. Thanks to Uncle Sap! The Supreme Court still adheres to "benevolent neutrality."

Additionally, churches held stock in war contracts, especially Vietnam. Churches are involved in "leaseback" gimmicks when a business owner sells his business to a church and both make money. Then there is the "insurance" scheme, the day care center scheme, the antipoverty Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) scheme and homes for the elderly scheme. Additionally there are wills, gifts, wineries, coagulated milk factories, California Missions and the sale of religious products, including a price for an audience with the pope! There are fund-railings, pilgrimages, bingos, raffles and lotteries. This is to say nothing of the sales of the pope's book, encyclicals and new catechisms, all tax- free.

The religious financial empire is limitless. Boys Town (Nebraska) for homeless boys is an example. Their $20 million annual income for 700 boys was exposed (attacked) as a phony appeal. Now lately the Catholic Church has been asking for billions to support some 40,000 retired nuns, brothers and priests. Should these receive Social Security when their salaries went to their own churches? Does this make sense?

Last year the Vatican admitted to a surplus of $1.5 million. Thanks to world contributions to the Holy See. All of this tax-free. (San Diego Union-Tribune, 18 June 1995.)

Your property taxes go up each year because church property is tax-free. Will our national leaders do something about this? No! will believers stop giving money to priests? No! How about revolutionary expropriation? Yes, this is possible but not until sleepy Americans are educated enough to shake off their shackles of superstition.

Church financial power has become an economic colossus at our expense. The only way to destroy this inequity is to attack and expose it.

Remember, there have been anti-clerical upheavals in the past. Ironically, on the day I finish this article, it is Bastille Day. "Aux armes les citoyens!"

Churches should never be allowed to take in more money than they need to cover their annual expenditures. Period!


[b]Bolder Landry[/b] is an exceptional scholar, speaking and reading several languages. He was a history teacher for many years and is a staunch Thomas Paine fan. He has written several books and currently resides in San Diego, California.[/quote]

more to come later. UK and Kansas are playin college bball!!!

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[spathariossa]

Phatcatholic did a good job here but allow me to rebut some things from the article.

First and foremost, the crusades had nothing to do with gold or treasure. In fact modern scholarship (especially a close reading of the Cairo Geniza texts) indicates that a lucrative trade network existed long before the crusades linking mediterranean European countries with their muslim counterparts.

Secondly, even though trade increased as a result of the crusading movement, this trade was no less beneficial to muslim countries than it was to Christian ones. Furthermore, the Pope had no control over this trade whatsoever. It was a multi-faith group of merchants from many different countries that profited most from these connections.

Finally, the Pope didn't control the lands of the crusader states. The states were independent petty nations who governed their own affairs. In fact, the crusader states oftentimes sided with muslims against one another. They were very much their own nations. Furthermore, the lands owned by crusading orders were also independent of the Church. Like monasteries, the pope had no right to interfere with the lands of Crusading orders even if he was their ultimate authority.

This author's understanding of the inquisitions is facile at best. Firstly, the inquistion wasn't a single event or even a single time period. Various inquisitions were held in different places at different times for different reasons. The most notorious is the spanish inquisition. However, the truth is that the pope asked the Spanish government to cease this inquisition. The Spanish monarchy had been given control of the inquisition by the pope much earlier and was using it as a tool for centralization of their power. They refused the pope's request to cease the inquisition of course. So, in the case of the spanish inquisition, any greed would have more to do with the spanish monarchy than the catholic church.

This author clearly has absolutely no understanding of history. Having read his credentials allow me to say I speak 7 languages. So there.

[Phatmasser777]

Of course the Church is rich. Geez you seen the VATICAN ARCHIVES! There are priceless objects there. In general the Catholic Church is the richest Church on earth, but also, one of the most hard-working.

[cmotherofpirl]

Think of how much money it takes to take care of those [i]priceless[/i] objects.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 10 2005, 09:25 PM'] Of course the Church is rich. Geez you seen the VATICAN ARCHIVES! There are priceless objects there. In general the Catholic Church is the richest Church on earth, but also, one of the most hard-working. [/quote]
Yes, some of those objects are priceless. But they have been given to the Church by donors for the glory of God. You could make a pile on ebay with all the relics, icons etc. But I certainly do not think that brings honor and glory to God.


One part of the equation that these people will not consider is that many of these valuable items and these Cathedrals and all increase peoples faith which in turn increases their charity. I know nothing inspires my faith quite like the St. Paul Cathedral.

Blessings

[cathqat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 11 2005, 08:46 AM'] Think of how much money it takes to take care of those [i]priceless[/i] objects. [/quote]
No kidding. It is a huge expense to operate a church or museum, and there's very little return, especially if admission is free.

Personally, I'm glad the Church is custodian to so many priceless works of art, because the Church actually makes them available to the public while private collectors often do not. Same with priceless documents; the Church not only preserves them but makes them available to professional scholars. We all benefit.

[journeyman]

One fictional theme (I think The Shoes of the Fisherman (Morris West? - later a movie with whats-his-name - famous Greek actor - Quinn ??) touched on this) is "how much good could the Church do if it actually converted it's "priceless" collections to cash.

A more recent treatment was Mary Doria Russel's book, The Sparrow, in which the Jesuits financed the first interestellar planetary contact by the sale of two or three choice items from their collections - thus beating the UN to the planet by some 5 years

If the Church were to do sell off its collections, it would probably deflate the market considerably, thereby reducing the value of the collections in the process of liquidating them, and defeating the purpose of selling them in the first place. It is sort of like the plantation owners in the south in the mid-1850s - land rich - cash poor.

[phatcatholic]

good point journeyman...........i had never thought of that

[at0m1c]

I've still got one more question. Does the church owe a lot of money?

[journeyman]

that's a tough question to answer

Vatican ??
[url="http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact92/wf930109.txt"]http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact92/wf930109.txt[/url]
[url="http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/backgroundnotes/holysee.txt"]http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/backg...tes/holysee.txt[/url]
[url="http://globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/CountryGovt.asp?CountryID=55&RegionID=2"]http://globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/CountryGovt...D=55&RegionID=2[/url]
[url="http://foia.state.gov/MMS/postrpt/print_pr_View_All.asp?cntryID=64&section=&print=true&c_ID=&p_id=&s_ID="]http://foia.state.gov/MMS/postrpt/print_pr...ID=&p_id=&s_ID=[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/dcforum/intheworld/563.html"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/dcforum/intheworld/563.html[/url]
[url="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/25/54159.shtml"]http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2.../25/54159.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/EntityDisplay.php?Entity=VaticanBank"]http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/En...ity=VaticanBank[/url]

Each of the dioceses in the United States is a separate "financial" entity
which is why a bankruptcy filing of one diocese in response to the sex abuse scandals is not a factor for the "whole" church or the other dioceses
[url="http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/07/14/loc_church_finances.html"]http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/07/1...h_finances.html[/url]
[url="http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/03-1NRspring/59-61V57N1.pdf"]http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/03-1.../59-61V57N1.pdf[/url]
[url="http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=83406"]http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=83406[/url]

and each local parish is "more or less" independent

and each of the orders is probably also a separate financial entity
the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, etc etc

Each financial entity may have had better years - and most of the American dioceses have some sort of "contingent" liability for all the lawsuits that are flying around - so in the simplest terms, yes, they probably owe someone lots of money - but they presently have the ability to pay their bills as they come due - so they are not "insolvent"

thus far no one has the ability to tie all the financial data together (just as no one can tie your family's bank accounts together to determine your "family" net worth")

[phatcatholic]

herer are experpts from two of the articles journeyman provided that give the actual state of vatican financial affairs:


[url="http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact92/wf930109.txt"]http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact92/wf930109.txt[/url]
Budget: revenues $92 million; expenditures $178 million, including
capital expenditures of $NA (1992)


[url="http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/07/14/loc_church_finances.html"]http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/07/1...h_finances.html[/url]
The center of the Catholic Church earlier this month reported its first deficit in nine years and blamed the shortfall on a worldwide financial slump aggravated by the Sept. 11 terror attacks. The Vatican says it took in $173.5 million and spent $176.5 million in fiscal 2001.


.........yea, we owe some money

[journeyman]

I think there's a difference between "owing" money and "spending" money.

If (to use my budget) I spend $100 more than I budgeted, and take the funds from savings . . . I don't "owe" anybody . . . if I put it on a credit card . . . I owe

In the local diocese articles, I thought I read that the diocese had dipped into savings to cover the cash flow shortage - their concern was that the cost of everything was going up, while the value of their investments/savings was going down with the market.

Where it is going to get scary is down the road when the personal injury lawyers start suing diocese by diocese for molestation/abuse claims. While there will probably be some insurance, I don't know if there is enough insurance to cover all the possible claims. In that respect, the Church probably does "owe" money . . . they just don't know to whom and how much

[phatcatholic]

good call journeyman

[jezic]

I haven't read everything elsebut i would only offer this,

if the church is rich it is rich in Truth.

Money, i don't think the majority of it is in financial trouble (except for areas plagued by abuses that should have never occured and the craziness of the american court system.). The last strong evidence i read on it came out after the IOR issue and the church was listed as stable.

[Crusader_4]

The Church is rich...financially. There is no doubt about that. When an organization has existed for 2000 years outlasting empires and institutions its going to aquire some wealth along the way. However as the church's finances are broken down the money is spread pretty thin cumlitavily it would be enormous....remember most countries care for lets say 300 million we have 1.2 billion to care for.

[phatcatholic]

good point