ironmonk Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) [quote name='FilmGuy127' date='Jan 11 2005, 07:59 PM'] I think it should be imerative to seperate religion from government... As long as there are diffrent faiths and the government is supposed to represent all of the people there should be no religion involved whatsoever and decisions for the people should be made for the common good, not faith driven moral or ethical reasons. That said, it is impossible to seperate religion from the people who work for the government, but it is their duty as public servants to serve the common good, not the common god. [/quote] Sorry, but you are wrong. Governments are not supposed to represent all of the people... they are supposed to represent the truth. They are supposed to keep order. They are supposed to provide some kind of protection for their people. The Catholic Church is the True religion, and this is not my belief, it is a proven fact. There has been ample scientific evidence that is impossible to be coincidence. There have been ample miracles... with tens of thousands of witnesses. Two: Fatima and St. Pio. All Governments should be Catholic because the Catholic Church has the truth. People of those governments should not be forced to be Catholic; but they should not be able to lie about the Catholic Church as Jack Chick and Ian Paisley does. They should be given the facts about the Catholic Church and allowed to decide for themselves. The line of thought that a government should have nothing to do with God is not only foolish but has been brought about by those mad at God and protestants... because they know they might be wrong and do not understand how anyone can be 100% right. Governments have a responsibility to search for and state the truth. The only religion that is complete truth is Catholicism. God Bless, ironmonk Edited January 12, 2005 by ironmonk
FilmGuy127 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 [quote]All Governments should be Catholic[/quote] So, India... with 98% of its population not catholic should have a catholic government?
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 oh, and just to point out the fact that "truth is not decided by a majority vote": If 98% of the US citizens thought the sun was cool enough to land on, would you expect a government to let them have it their way, and send a solar landing crew? And if you would prevent such a thing, because you knew it would help save the temporal lives of some, how much more should we strive to ensure the eternal lives of others?
track2004 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) Just my lil' input. Seperation of Church and State never meant that religion wouldn't affect politics, the forefathers weren't stupid enough to assume that could ever happen. It only says that there cannot and will not be a State-Church (like the Episcopals). In the US the government is set up as a Republic, ei to represent the people. Under this proposition if we get it all wrong it's our own darn fault. Communism works on paper, and only on paper. Though a Catholic state would be the best possible it would meet more than open revolt in the US and most places in the world. Trying to start one would be a lot more damaging than living with a republican government and working to convert the citizens. The reason people made up government, and therefore its job, is to create an order among the citizens with common laws as to ensure productivity and peace. Governments are "To provide methods by which the energies of the many millions of individuals as well as various private and public organisations could be harnessed to make possible human advancement and development. The government has a duty to defend the nation from external attack, preserve law and order, establish a degree of regulation essential for interaction between people and institutions, and provide welfare for the genuinely poor, the under-privileged and the disabled." [url="http://www.ourcivilisation.com/cooray/btof/chap163.htm"]Citation[/url] Ok I think I'm done. Edited January 12, 2005 by track2004
ironmonk Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 [quote name='FilmGuy127' date='Jan 12 2005, 12:49 AM'] So, India... with 98% of its population not catholic should have a catholic government? [/quote] I am fully aware of India. Did I not write 'all'? Would this not include India if I wrote all? Please corrected me if I'm wrong about the meaning of all, but I thought all in this context meant every country. Did you read the rest of my post? Governments have a responsibility to seek the truth and teach the truth. The Catholic Church is the only religion which is teaching 100% truth. If a government was Catholic and by Catholic I mean true to the teachings of the Church... it would be the most just country in the world. If all countries where this type of Catholic then there would not be poverty, there would not be abortion, the world would be Just... But the world is ruled by satan - that is why there are so many evils in our day. Currently India's government is not just and has a law against converting people. Hinduism is a collection of false religions, it has some good teachings. It is a fact that the Catholic Church was created by Christ Himself, it's teachings are ALL good. It is a fact that Christ was God the Son. All who deny these things have not studied the facts OR do not have the mental power to comprehend the logic and proof. God Bless, ironmonk
Phatmasser777 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 11 2005, 07:19 PM'] A good Christian shies not from persecution, but welcomes it with open arms, for in persecution we are united to the persecution of Christ, and in suffering we are joined to the His Passion. Secularism is the greatest enemy and the worst evil that the Church has ever faced, it draws people away from the Church by making them "individuals" and leads them down the path to Hell by slowly destroying their morals. If it came down to it, I choose an actively catholic-persecuting Evangelical government over a secular one such as we have today. By the first we are martyred, by the second we are damned. [/quote] Seeking Marytrdom is a sin. [quote]m is the greatest enemy and the worst evil that the Church has ever faced, it draws people away from the Church by making them "individuals" and leads them down the path to Hell by slowly destroying their morals.[/quote] The Church has done a good job of that itself, dont forget that. If it wasnt for the Church, there wouldnt be Orthodoxy, the Reformation, The Renaissance (which the Church hated, due its nude 'immoral' picturing of humanity). [quote]If it came down to it, I choose an actively catholic-persecuting Evangelical government over a secular one such as we have today.[/quote] Easy to say when you know it will never happen.
Phatmasser777 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 11 2005, 10:16 PM']Sorry, but you are wrong. Governments are not supposed to represent all of the people... they are supposed to represent the truth. They are supposed to keep order. They are supposed to provide some kind of protection for their people. The Catholic Church is the True religion, and this is not my belief, it is a proven fact. There has been ample scientific evidence that is impossible to be coincidence. There have been ample miracles... with tens of thousands of witnesses. Two: Fatima and St. Pio. All Governments should be Catholic because the Catholic Church has the truth. People of those governments should not be forced to be Catholic; but they should not be able to lie about the Catholic Church as Jack Chick and Ian Paisley does. They should be given the facts about the Catholic Church and allowed to decide for themselves. The line of thought that a government should have nothing to do with God is not only foolish but has been brought about by those mad at God and protestants... because they know they might be wrong and do not understand how anyone can be 100% right. Governments have a responsibility to search for and state the truth. The only religion that is complete truth is Catholicism. God Bless, ironmonk[/quote] FACT? You mean PERSONAL BELIEF. Dont get the two mistaken. Yes why dont we have the Inquisition back to, you know Id be burnt at the stake right now, since I 'fell' into 'heresy'? Tell me where Christ said, BURN TO DEATH THOSE THAT DONT FOLLOW HIM???
FilmGuy127 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 I read your whole post.... but i couldnt disagree more that govenments job is to seek truth. A governments job... well the quote from track said it... but lemmie cite some specific examples... a governments job would be to build roads, provide for national defence, regulate commerce, provide schools... stuff like that.... governments dont seek truth.
track2004 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 This is kind of in reply to Filmguy. I seek Truth because I can be saved. Organization don't because they don't need to, they enable me to find the Truth. The Church is awesome because it allows ME to find real meaning in life, the government is awesome because it doesn't inhibit me from finding this, no matter how off I may be at any point in my journey. A government forcing religion on people is bad because it defeats the purpose of MY journey. The Church is a beacon for all people, but that beacon shouldn't go around lighting stuff on fire to show people it's power (bad analogy but whatever some of you will get what I'm trying to say).
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Avoiding martyrdom by rejecting the Truth is a sin. Truth is not relative to individuals.
Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jan 12 2005, 04:31 PM'] Avoiding martyrdom by rejecting the Truth is a sin. Truth is not relative to individuals. [/quote] SEEKING DEATH. IE: Going to a place where you know ull be killed for speaking the bible, is not marytrdom, its suicide.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote]Seeking Marytrdom is a sin.[/quote] So is refusing to accept it. Moreover, so is choosing temporal life over eternal life [quote]The Church has done a good job of that itself, dont forget that. If it wasnt for the Church, there wouldnt be Orthodoxy, the Reformation, The Renaissance (which the Church hated, due its nude 'immoral' picturing of humanity).[/quote] typical [i]post hoc ergo propter hoc[/i]. This is neither a valid nor sound argument. It is like saying that health is the cause of sickness, because one was healthy before one was sick [quote]Easy to say when you know it will never happen.[/quote] Absolutely. Doesn't make it any less true.
cathqat Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='FilmGuy127' date='Jan 11 2005, 10:49 PM'] So, India... with 98% of its population not catholic should have a catholic government? [/quote] Depends on what you mean by "catholic government." I do not believe a confessional state is necessary in order to have a government compatible with the Catholic faith.
cathqat Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='FilmGuy127' date='Jan 12 2005, 01:15 PM'] i couldnt disagree more that govenments job is to seek truth..... governments dont seek truth. [/quote] It is true that most governments do not, in fact, seek truth. But they should. Why? Because all governments are founded upon and guided by philosophical presuppositions. It is impossible to have a government without philosophical presuppositions. To govern well, it is absolutely necessary to ask whether one's philosophical presuppositions are true and whether they are good. Otherwise, the government will be bad. There is no alternative.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 it is utterly inescapable, even a rejection of government entirely, anarchy, involves philosophical pressuppositions. There is no way out. All your base belong to us
cathqat Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 13 2005, 03:22 PM'] All your base belong to us [/quote] You have no chance to survive make your time.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 13 2005, 02:10 AM'] SEEKING DEATH. IE: Going to a place where you know ull be killed for speaking the bible, is not marytrdom, its suicide. [/quote] It's also rejecting your duty to evangelize.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 13 2005, 03:27 PM'] You have no chance to survive make your time. [/quote] o gosh, I dont even know if the banana guy is able to adequately celebrate
Phatmasser777 Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jan 13 2005, 04:03 PM'] It's also rejecting your duty to evangelize. [/quote] Then thats a stupid set of laws, your screwed if you do, screwed if you dont.
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