St. Thomas Aquinas

[musturde]

He was for Predestination? When was predestination finally decided upon as being false by the Church?
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102301.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102301.htm[/url]

[cathqat]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 18 2005, 07:48 PM'] He was for Predestination? When was predestination finally decided upon as being false by the Church?
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102301.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102301.htm[/url] [/quote]
Predestination is not "false." It is scriptural! [i]Some theories[/i] regarding predestination are false, e.g. Calvin's theory of double predestination.

Several theories of predestination are acceptable within Catholicism. The best known are "Thomism" (named for Thomas Aquinas) and Molinism (named for Luis de Molina). Thomists and Molinists, when they debate their theories, are officially forbidden to call each other heretics. More recent Catholic theories of predestination are also being articulated, e.g. among the christocentric "Scuola di Venegono" of the Northern Italian Theological School.

[phatcatholic]

cathqat...............what is the difference between thomism and molinism?

[thessalonian]

To add to what phatc said, from the CCC

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.


2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other "Christs."

God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called "Christs."
The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, "Father!" because he has now begun to be a son.


One difference in the Catholic idea of predestinatoin is that none are predstined to hell. One understanding of this is that God gives all men the grace for salvatoin. Thus it is by their choices and actions, rejecting his grace, that they go to hell.

[cathqat]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 18 2005, 08:06 PM'] cathqat...............what is the difference between thomism and molinism? [/quote]
phatcatholic, you have a nasty habit of asking me to write tremendous dissertations

And the problem is, it is VERY difficult to find or write simple explanations of these ideas.

These may be the best bets.
[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ216.HTM"]Dave Armstrong's presentation of Protestant Arminianism will be close to Catholic Molinism[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm"]Jimmy Akin's critique of Calvinism also presents Catholic Thomism[/url]
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=1535&hl="][b]Cure of Ars, right here on phatmass, wrote this!!![/b][/url]

You might also try these:

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm"]Jimmy Akin's Justification by Grace Alone mentions some differences[/url]
[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]Catholic Predestination in Ludwig Ott's [i]Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma[/i][/url]
[url="http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html"]Predestination and the Catholic Church[/url]
[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS7.HTM#PREDESTINATION,%20FOREKNOWLEDGE,%20FREE%20WILL,%20AND%20THE"]Dave Armstrong's Links[/url]

Edited January 19, 2005 by cathqat

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 18 2005, 11:59 PM'] phatcatholic, you have a nasty habit of asking me to write tremendous dissertations [/quote]
but oh how i love to learn from those much wiser than I!!

[journeyman]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 18 2005, 11:59 PM'] phatcatholic, you have a nasty habit of asking me to write tremendous dissertations

And the problem is, it is VERY difficult to find or write simple explanations of these ideas.

[/quote]
isn't there a parable about the servants and the talents?

cathqat - you have the talents! please don't bury them in the ground

[musturde]

Thnx guys.

[Apotheoun]

The Council of Quiersy (AD 853) declared against Gottschalk and the Predestinarians and defined that, as far as predestination is concerned, one must believe that the "Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one [i.e., God] who saves; that certain one perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish." [[u]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/u], page 127]

[avemarisstella]

I don't know a lot about the topic - I always thought the debate was about the operation of Divine Grace - but someone gave me a nice analogy.

Molinism: There's a ladder, but you take control of one leg and God takes control of the other leg, so you have to move a leg before God can move the other leg. So you have to cooperate with grace to get up the ladder.

Thomism: God is Daddy. He's mowing the lawns. He asks you to come and put your hands on the handle bar and push with all your might. He stands behind you with his hands on the bar too. If you do as he says, who has mowed the lawns? You or Him? Well, you've pushed with all your might, but so has he, so you've both made a 100% effort. You cooperating with grace means that the lawns get mowed, but his grace works anyway, whether you cooperate or not.

These examples are by no means perfect and, as I say, I don't know a lot about the topic. If it doesn't help, feel free to ignore it!

Predestination touches on the topic of omniscience - God is outside time, so he knows everything. That means he knows who will finally cooperate with sanctifying grace and who won't. But we still have free will.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='avemarisstella' date='Jan 26 2005, 04:42 PM'] You cooperating with grace means that the lawns get mowed, [b]but his grace works anyway, whether you cooperate or not.[/b] [/quote]
can someone explain this part that i bolded?

thanks

[journeyman]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 18 2005, 08:01 PM'] Thomists and Molinists, when they debate their theories, are officially forbidden to call each other heretics. [/quote]
Are there "official" rules of engagement?

[journeyman]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 26 2005, 08:05 PM'] QUOTE (avemarisstella @ Jan 26 2005, 04:42 PM)
You cooperating with grace means that the lawns get mowed, [b]but his grace works anyway, whether you cooperate or not.[/b]

can someone explain this part that i bolded?


thanks [/quote]
explain with authority? no . . . my reading of that was that God was mowing the grass . . . he is big and I am small . . . if he lets me help, and I push, the lawn gets mowed . . . if he lets me help, and I drag my heels, and don't push, the lawn still gets mowed, because my power is not equal to His

Edited January 29, 2005 by journeyman

[avemarisstella]

Yeah, sorry for not posting a response. That's what I meant anyway, journeyman. We can choose to help God or not with the work he is doing. I prefer the Thomist position myself, but I'll refrain from calling Molinists heretics...

From what I've heard, Jesuits tend to be Molinists and Dominicans Thomists, but that could be a broad generalisation.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='avemarisstella' date='Jan 30 2005, 04:50 PM'] Yeah, sorry for not posting a response. That's what I meant anyway, journeyman. We can choose to help God or not with the work he is doing. I prefer the Thomist position myself, but I'll refrain from calling Molinists heretics...

From what I've heard, Jesuits tend to be Molinists and Dominicans Thomists, but that could be a broad generalisation. [/quote]
Something doesn't sound right about the names, but I don't have time to check my notes at the moment. But, yes, Jesuits and Dominicans do take the differing positions. I've been in the same room with both while discussing the topic.

Edit: This was my 500th post!

[avemarisstella]

Really? Wow, I've never had a [i]real[/i] conversation with a [i]real[/i] Jesuit or Dominican before. How exciting! I thought they had given up discussing the problem.

[phatcatholic]

i'm sure they still discuss it...............just not w/ each other