spathariossa Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 I just got to thinking about this. Neanderthals co-existed with modern man for a few thousand years before dying out. They were a distinctly different species but they buried their dead, made tools, and in so far as I know made art. Are they people or are they animals? Are they saved?
Guest Aluigi Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 perhaps they were not sons of Adam. in which case, the question is did they need to be saved? seeing as they died and such they must have. but if they were sons of Adam, they simply evolved (adapted) into a different form than us. they would then be in the same boat as all other sons of adam were at the time. Following the law written on their hearts they might have been justified enough to enter limbo and await Christ who would release them and then they'd either go to heaven or hell depending on their acceptance of Christ.
spathariossa Posted January 20, 2005 Author Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 19 2005, 09:03 PM'] perhaps they were not sons of Adam. in which case, the question is did they need to be saved? seeing as they died and such they must have. but if they were sons of Adam, they simply evolved (adapted) into a different form than us. they would then be in the same boat as all other sons of adam were at the time. Following the law written on their hearts they might have been justified enough to enter limbo and await Christ who would release them and then they'd either go to heaven or hell depending on their acceptance of Christ. [/quote] If death came into the world from Adam then what about dinosaurs?
MichaelFilo Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 (edited) Animals don't have souls, I believe it was spiritual death that came into the world. I don't think that everything lived in the garden of Eden forever, because trees could never die, animals could never eat ( source of food ) and Adam and Eve were vegetarians. God bless, Mikey Edited January 20, 2005 by MichaelFilo
Guest Aluigi Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 God killed them when we had to leave the garden. I knew it was all our fault! lol anyway, the death thing isn't necessarily literal. but seeing as Adam and Eve were not only in the perfect natural state but supernaturally elevated, then before the fall they were without death. when they fell from the supernatural elevation, human death entered the world, and they fell not only from supernatural elevation but right down below the natural level into a fallen nature.
spathariossa Posted January 20, 2005 Author Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 19 2005, 09:13 PM'] God killed them when we had to leave the garden. I knew it was all our fault! lol anyway, the death thing isn't necessarily literal. but seeing as Adam and Eve were not only in the perfect natural state but supernaturally elevated, then before the fall they were without death. when they fell from the supernatural elevation, human death entered the world, and they fell not only from supernatural elevation but right down below the natural level into a fallen nature. [/quote] Awww...I caused the extinction of the dinosaurs...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 i figure extinction of a species always tends to be humanity's fault somehow! why not the dinosaurs?
jezic Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 i know it has been said each person is judged according to what they know and how they acted up on that information. it is not anyone's power here to say if they had souls or not. You get to Heaven first and then you can ask God or them directly. I do not think death entered the world as the reaction to sin. I think death entered the world because now there was sin because they turned once, they would again and to save us from sin. Thus already the cycle of sin was established. It is God's gift to the faithful to leave early and visit him.
cmotherofpirl Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jan 19 2005, 11:11 PM'] Animals don't have souls, I believe it was spiritual death that came into the world. I don't think that everything lived in the garden of Eden forever, because trees could never die, animals could never eat ( source of food ) and Adam and Eve were vegetarians. God bless, Mikey [/quote] Animals have animal souls which end at their death. Humans have immortal souls.
Sinner Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 Neanderthals are extinct. You might as well join your fingers together with superglue.
Good Friday Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl']Animals have animal souls which end at their death. Humans have immortal souls.[/quote] I'm fairly certain that it's Catholic teaching that only humans and angels have spiritual natures (or souls), which is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. Could you please show me where Catholic teaching says that animals have temporary souls?
Phazzan Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 19 2005, 08:59 PM'] I just got to thinking about this. Neanderthals co-existed with modern man for a few thousand years before dying out. They were a distinctly different species but they buried their dead, made tools, and in so far as I know made art. Are they people or are they animals? Are they saved? [/quote] You have to ask yourself if neanderthals are descendents of Adam. Of course they are not, therefore they don't have souls.
Guest Aluigi Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 20 2005, 10:21 AM'] [quote name='cmotherofpirl']Animals have animal souls which end at their death. Humans have immortal souls.[/quote] I'm fairly certain that it's Catholic teaching that only humans and angels have spiritual natures (or souls), which is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. Could you please show me where Catholic teaching says that animals have temporary souls? [/quote] that's Aquinas. I don't know of anything in official teaching that contradicts it nor do I know of any official teaching that supports it (but there might be). Aquinas talks about plant souls and animal souls and human souls and angelic souls, only the human and angelic is eternal but a soul is simply the animating force of life that would be present in all life.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 From what I've been taught, Neanderthals "were" not a distinct species.
Oik Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 Whose to say that Neanderthals weren't descendants of Adam? Whose to say they were animals. Our current physique is not really the only physique of man. What were the skin color of Adam and Eve? How did skin color then arise? What I am rejecting is evolution in the sense that we are somehow fundamentally different than our "supposed" "evoltionary" ancestors. I believe that not much has changed in humanity except maybe our understanding of how to preform skills and trades. Basically there are two options: Neanderthals are animals and not realted to us OR Neanderthals were human and were judged by God accordingly
popestpiusx Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 20 2005, 12:10 PM'] I'm fairly certain that it's Catholic teaching that only humans and angels have spiritual natures (or souls), which is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. Could you please show me where Catholic teaching says that animals have temporary souls? [/QUOTE] that's Aquinas. I don't know of anything in official teaching that contradicts it nor do I know of any official teaching that supports it (but there might be). Aquinas talks about plant souls and animal souls and human souls and angelic souls, only the human and angelic is eternal but a soul is simply the animating force of life that would be present in all life. [/quote] I know of no credible philosopher who denies this fact. There are three typrs of souls: vegetative, sensate, and rational. Yes, Aquinas taught it, but he was merely repeating what had ben taught for some 1500 years at his point in history. Only the rational soul is immortal. The other souls are merely that which keeps those things in being, in the form that they are in.
bookwyrm Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 Homo neandertalensis and Homo sapiens both split of from a common ancestor, Homo heidelbergensis. This occurred less than one million years ago, if my memory serves (which I can't guarantee it does, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now. ) The point is, neanderthals were on a separate branch of evolution, and not descendents of Adam per se. However, it seems that they were very civilized, being the first to actually bury their dead, etc. I think God might have given them souls, but they probably didn't inherit original sin from Adam.
popestpiusx Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 [quote name='bookwyrm' date='Jan 20 2005, 05:44 PM'] Homo neandertalensis and Homo sapiens both split of from a common ancestor, Homo heidelbergensis. This occurred less than one million years ago, if my memory serves (which I can't guarantee it does, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now. ) The point is, neanderthals were on a separate branch of evolution, and not descendents of Adam per se. However, it seems that they were very civilized, being the first to actually bury their dead, etc. I think God might have given them souls, but they probably didn't inherit original sin from Adam. [/quote] If I understand you correctly, that would be heresy.
bookwyrm Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 How so? That was not my intent. Please explain it to me.
popestpiusx Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 New evolution thread for anyone interested: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=27890&st=0entry497713"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...=0entry497713[/url]
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