Serious challenge for scholarly phatmassers

[Ziggamafu]

could you all contribute as much thinking power to this thread as possible? so many catholic apologetics are strictly on the defensive. how about a thread that gives us a serious challenge to present to protestants!

so here it is...

think of as many verses as you can that can only describe the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ, built on Peter. that means prophecies, descriptions of the Church, promises - you name it!

for instance, i remember reading somewhere about an old testament prophecy that says there will be continual sacrifices all over the earth - a prophecy that only the Catholic Church can fulfill. and of course, christ said the church would be built on peter. what other church traces their leadership back to Peter? you get the idea.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Jan 23 2005, 08:21 PM'] so many catholic apologetics are strictly on the defensive. how about a thread that gives us a serious challenge to present to protestants! [/quote]
Most Catholic apologetics are defensive for the very reason that Protestants don't all believe the same thing. We can't know what the Protestant believes until they tell us. Once they tell us, they've taken the offensive. If we can successfully offer a defense, then they must retreat.

If you want to seriously challenge a Protestant, hand them the CCC and ask them to refute it using the Bible. That's really what Catholic Apologetics is all about. They attack a part of the Catechism, we defend. The Catechism itself *is* our attack.

Peace,
Joe

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Jan 23 2005, 08:21 PM'] could you all contribute as much thinking power to this thread as possible? so many catholic apologetics are strictly on the defensive. how about a thread that gives us a serious challenge to present to protestants!

so here it is...

think of as many verses as you can that can only describe the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ, built on Peter. that means prophecies, descriptions of the Church, promises - you name it!

for instance, i remember reading somewhere about an old testament prophecy that says there will be continual sacrifices all over the earth - a prophecy that only the Catholic Church can fulfill. and of course, christ said the church would be built on peter. what other church traces their leadership back to Peter? you get the idea. [/quote]
The verse you are looking for is in Malachi.

1 v 11] For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.


This verse was taken to be refering to the Mass by many such as Justin Martyr and I believe Irenaus.


Here is another I see the Church in as well.
Is 2:
[2] It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
[3] and many peoples shall come, and say:
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

I give you some more in the morning.

Blessings

Edited January 24, 2005 by thessalonian

[Theoketos]

This book would be useful for your purposes

[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ461.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ461.HTM[/url]

[StColette]

Eph 2:20-21 "You are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself as the Chief Cornerstone. In Him the whole structure is fitted together and grows into a temple holy in the Lord."

Eph 1:22-23 "And ALL things He made subject under His feet, and Him He gave as head over ALL the Church, which indeed IS His Body, the completion of Him who fills all with all. "

Rom 12:4-5
4 For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ; and every one members one of another:

Catholics contend that the elders/presbyters in Scripture carry out all the functions of the Catholic priest:

1) Sent and Commissioned by Jesus (the notion of being called): Mark 6:7, John 15:5, 20:21, Romans 10:15, 2 Corinthians 5:20.
2) Representatives of Jesus: Luke 10:16, John 13:20.
3) Authority to "Bind" and "Loose" (Penance and Absolution): Matthew 18:18 (compare Matthew 16:19).
4) Power to Forgive Sins in Jesus' Name: Luke 24:47, John 20:21-23, 2 Corinthians 2:5-11, James 5:15.
5) Authority to Administer Penance: Acts 5:2-11, 1 Corinthians 5:3-13, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 1 Timothy 1:18-20, Titus 3:10.
6) Power to Conduct the Eucharist: Luke 22:19, Acts 2:42 (compare Luke 24:35, Acts 2:46, 20:7, 1 Corinthians 10:16).
7) Dispense Sacraments: 1 Corinthians 4:1, James 5:13-15.
8) Perform Baptisms: Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38,41.
9) Ordained: Acts 14:23, 1 Timothy 4:14, 5:23.
10) Pastors (Shepherds): Acts 20:17,28, Ephesians 4:11, 1 Peter 5:1-4.
11) Preach and Teach: 1 Timothy 3:1-2, 5:17.
12) Evangelize: Matthew 16:15, 28:19-20, Mark 3:14, Luke 9:2,6, 24:47, Acts 1:8.
13) Heal: Matthew 10:1, Luke 9:1-2,6.
14) Cast Out Demons: Matthew 10:1, Mark 3:15, Luke 9:1.
15) Hear Confessions: Acts 19:18 (compare Matthew 3:6, Mark 1:5, James 5:16, 1 John 1:8-9; presupposed in John 20:23).
16) Celibacy for Those Called to it: Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7:7-9,20,25-38 (especially 7:35).
17) Enjoy Christ's Perpetual Presence and Assistance in a Special Way: Matthew 28:20.

Bishops (episkopos) possess all the powers, duties, and jurisdiction of priests, with the following important additional responsibilities:

1) Jurisdiction over Priests and Local Churches, and the Power to Ordain Priests: Acts 14:22, 1 Timothy 5:22, 2 Timothy 1:6, Titus 1:5.
2) Special Responsibility to Defend the Faith: Acts 20:28-31, 2 Timothy 4:1-5, Titus 1:9-10, 2 Peter 3:15-16.
3) Power to Rebuke False Doctrine and Excommunicate: Acts 8:14-24, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:10-11.
4) Power to Bestow Confirmation (the Receiving of the Indwelling Holy Spirit): Acts 8:14-17, 19:5-6.
5) Management of Church Finances: 1 Timothy 3:3-4, 1 Peter 5:2.

[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ60.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ60.HTM[/url]

[phatcatholic]

John Salza has already done this for us check out his section on The Church at scripturecatholic.com

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 24 2005, 07:12 PM'] John Salza has already done this for us check out his section on The Church at scripturecatholic.com [/quote]
lol ya know I must have totally not been thinking lol That's usually the site I go for straight away lol I blame it on ummm college lol

[phatcatholic]

i blame it on being silly

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 24 2005, 07:14 PM'] i blame it on being silly [/quote]
lol that too, I'm the comic relief for the Apologetics Board

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='StColette' date='Jan 24 2005, 07:17 PM'] lol that too, I'm the comic relief for the Apologetics Board [/quote]
isnt that the truth! :crackup:






i mean.... umm......










:ph34r: