Death Penalty

[the_rev]

Does the Catholic Church teach if you believe in the dealth penalty, then you are not in full communion with the church?

Someone in our dioceses newspaper wrote in about Gonzealez as a Catholic who is to be the next Attorney General for the Us who believes in the deaht penalty, the individual stated that Bishop Burke will refuse him communion now.

Is this true?

If it is, I then will recant my position on the death penalty.

[Guest Aluigi]

Nope, not true at all. If Burke did that, he'd be disobeying the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

[quote]3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote]
-Cardinal Ratzinger

[the_rev]

However, I am still recanting my position on the death penalty.

[phatcatholic]

its all pretty straight-forward:[list][b]2265 [/b]Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

[b]2266 [/b]The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

[b]2267 [/b]Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68
[/list]hypothetically, it could be licitly applied............but it is highly unlikely in a society such as ours.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited January 29, 2005 by phatcatholic

[MagiDragon]

true, but i still believe the death penalty is a good thing. I don't think it should be used often, (Maybe a few times a decade in a country the size of the U.S.) but i think it's something that we shouldn't take away from the government.

My main fear with removal of the death penalty is the mob. A Mob boss could order someone killed from jail, and still be a threat to society even if he's locked up. Aside from that, i don't think there is much use for it in modern society.

Peace,
Joe

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='the_rev' date='Jan 28 2005, 11:27 PM'] However, I am still recanting my position on the death penalty. [/quote]
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the death penalty. It, like all things, can be abused. But in and of itself is perfectly fine, or more precisely, morally neutral.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Jan 28 2005, 11:57 PM'] true, but i still believe the death penalty is a good thing. I don't think it should be used often, (Maybe a few times a decade in a country the size of the U.S.) but i think it's something that we shouldn't take away from the government.

[/quote]
The moral value of the death penalty does not depend upon the frequency of its application, but the individual circumstances surrounding each individual case.

[Apotheoun]

The death penalty is a part of the moral law and the State has the right, and in some cases the duty, to judiciously apply it.

God bless,
Todd

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 29 2005, 12:10 AM'] The death penalty is a part of the moral law and the State has the right, and in some cases the duty, to judiciously apply it.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
do you think that it can ever be used in the United States?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 29 2005, 12:34 AM'] do you think that it can ever be used in the United States? [/quote]
Yes.

[Guest Aluigi]

Phatcatholic, the Catechism you quoted contained a quote from Pope John Paul II. The CDF has clarified that such opinions about its application in the modern world are opinions of the Holy Father and not even binding as teaching to Catholics. The binding teaching here is that the state has just recourse to it and that people who commit grave crimes such as murder have forfeited the right to their own life. Thus, anyone truly guilty of a grave crime if they are executed they are justly executed. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinions as to whether we should now use non-lethal means et cetera.

But as PSPX once alerted me, the modern situation is not really that different. There have always been non-lethal means available. Thus I stand by the use of the death penalty. The state ought to consider mercy, but I fully support the execution of any and all murderers and commit their souls to God's mercy.

[dtofdh]

My mother and I debate about this issue. She insists that Pope John Paul II has declared the death penalty inpermissible under Humanae Vitae... Is this correct?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dtofdh' date='Jan 29 2005, 10:41 AM'] My mother and I debate about this issue.  She insists that Pope John Paul II has declared the death penalty inpermissible under Humanae Vitae... Is this correct? [/quote]
No, it is not correct. The power of the State to use the death penalty is a part of the natural moral law and divine revelation, and so no power on earth, not even the Church's Magisterium can forbid its judicious use. In the encyclical letter [u]Evangelium Vitae[/u] the Pope has asked civil authorities to show mercy and when possible to limit themselves to non-lethal means in punishing criminals, but the Pope cannot declare the use of the death penalty to be immoral. Thus, the State remains free to use the death penalty when it is deemed necessary, both to defend society from an aggressor and to restore justice thereby maintaining the common good.

God bless,
Todd

[phatcatholic]

where has the Church ever taught that a murderer forfeits his right to life? for some reason, my entire being rejects that idea.....

[Guest Aluigi]

the principle of forfeiture is part of the natural law

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 29 2005, 02:10 PM'] the principle of forfeiture is part of the natural law [/quote]
sorry bro, this whole idea is new to me. i need to see some proof or somethin....

[Guest Aluigi]

I was hopin Apotheon would help in the proof department. I do know for a fact that according to natural law a person whose life threatens the life of another forfeits his own life. In the Christian Tradition homicide [b]is[/b] suicide.

[Benedict]

From [url="http://faculty.washington.edu/himma/phil338/lect3.htm"]Kretzmann's Lex Iniusta Non Est Lex[/url] (An Unjust Law is not Law)
[quote]VIII. Qualifying Principles.  But if there are no exceptions, what do we do when values appear to come into conflict?  Natural law admits two qualifying principles that helps in cases where values appear to conflict:

1.  Principle of forfeiture.  Sometimes we find ourselves in a situation in which we are forced to override the natural value of another person’s life when we are being attacked.  If we do nothing, we allow ourselves to be killed; if we defend ourselves, we kill someone else.  According to the principle of forfeiture, a person who threatens the life of an innocent person forfeits his or her own right to life.  Not only can the principle of forfeiture be used to justify self-defense, it can also be used to justify war and capital punishment.  [/quote]

A short bout of research found many affirmations of its existence in the natural law but not too many "proofs".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 29 2005, 11:40 AM'] where has the Church ever taught that a murderer forfeits his right to life? for some reason, my entire being rejects that idea..... [/quote]
As Scripture says, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image." [Gen. 9:6] The power of the sword has been given to the State in order to execute criminals, and this is clear from what St. Paul said while he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience." [Romans 13:1-5]

[Apotheoun]

The death penalty has been discussed in a large number of threads in the Debate Table since I became a member of Phatmass back in June of 2004. Those interested in revisiting what has already been said on this topic can click on the links below:

This link is to a particular thread discussing the death penalty (the thread is 7 pages long):

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=15261"]Is the Death Penalty ever necessary in our Society[/url]

A link to the thread on the Scott Peterson trial (the thread is 6 pages long):

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=25575"]Scott Peterson Death Sentence[/url]

This link is to a search page which includes a large number of threads dealing with this topic:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=74e5aecdb27d9973d380ab6be05c887d&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=death+penalty"]Threads on the Death Penalty[/url]

God bless,
Todd