Why liturgical dancing is anathema

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Jan 29 2005, 05:38 PM'] From the Vatican Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship: "Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying, and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance" (Instruction on Inculturation and the Roman Liturgy, 42).

So, wherever these people are. [/quote]
Illinois?

Thank you though, that allows me to say what it was that bothered me. It seems like a performace, a grand performance. It was easy to lose sight of the important stuff in all the spectacle.

[Guest Eremite]

This is Sister Bertha from my parish. She and Brother Crockowski insist on their dance routines at every Sunday Mass. (Hat tip to Mark Shea.)

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/eremite_85/hyacinth.jpg[/img]

[Benedict]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jan 29 2005, 03:45 PM'] Thank you though, that allows me to say what it was that bothered me. It seems like a performace, a grand performance. It was easy to lose sight of the important stuff in all the spectacle. [/quote]
That is only because the experience is new to you. All you see is the dance as a spectacle. To those for whom liturgical dance is permitted, there is no sense of spectacle.

[jmjtina]

[img]http://phorum.phatmass.com/style_images/1/icon8.gif[/img]

[Guest Eremite]

Seriously, though, here's a picture from a parish I used to attend. Thankfully, I curtsied out before the madness ensued:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/eremite_85/troupe4.jpg[/img]

Dance is not a part of worship in western culture, and thus is strictly prohibited (unlike in, say, Africa). Here is what the Congregation for Worship authoritatively ruled on the matter:

"However, the same criterion and judgment cannot be applied in the western culture.

Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.

For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations.

Neither can acceptance be had of the proposal to introduce into the liturgy the so-called artistic ballet because there would be presentation here also of a spectacle at which one would assist, while in the liturgy one of the norms from which one cannot prescind is that of participation.

Therefore, there is a great difference in cultures: what is well received in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture."

[toledo_jesus]

sorry Benedict, I think the Council was pretty clear.
And Illinois is definitely western culture.

[jmjtina]

[quote]"Just as all the gestures and movements found in the liturgy are regulated by the competent ecclesiastical authority, so also dancing as a gesture would have to be under its discipline. Concretely: there are cultures in which this is possible insofar as dancing is still reflective of religious values and becomes a clear manifestation of them... However, the same criterion and judgment cannot be applied in the western culture. Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure. For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations." - Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship, Dance In the Liturgy. Appeared in Notitiae 11 (1975) 202-205.

"All dancing, (ballet, children's gesture as dancing, the clown liturgy) are not permitted to be 'introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever.'" - National Conference of Catholic Bishops (Bishops' Committee On the Liturgy) Newsletter: April/May 1982.[/quote]


As Hyper once said, "Catholics need to learn how to sing at Mass before they start dancing."

[u][b]Liturgical dance is forebidden in the continental US[/b][/u]. Hawaii has different rules as dancing is a main part of their cultural tradition.

If you have seen liturgical dance in the US outside the parameters set down by the Church, you are seeing disobedience and abuse.

We are called to be faithful to the Church, not the local Bishop or priest if he is in error.
Blind obedience is no obedience at all.

pax.

Edited January 29, 2005 by jmjtina

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jan 29 2005, 06:00 PM']

Liturgical dance is forebidden in the continental US. Hawaii has different rules as dancing is a main part of their cultural tradition.

[/quote]
Bishop DiLorenzo (now in Richmond, where we need him) was in Honolulu and guided the allowance of Hula gestures into the liturgy, because the native Hawaiians met the specifications.


People from Illinois do not.

[Benedict]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jan 29 2005, 03:58 PM'] sorry Benedict, I think the Council was pretty clear.
And Illinois is definitely western culture. [/quote]
I never said the video was itself licit. I have only defended liturgical dance in general.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Jan 29 2005, 05:07 PM'] I never said the video was itself licit. I have only defended liturgical dance in general. [/quote]
You need to be clear and defend why it is wrong in some cases and why it is allowed in others.

To defend is to explain. If not, you confuse people.

You said you thought it was beautiful. Sorry, but I find no liturgical abuse beautiful.

St. Nicholas is now added to my prayer list.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jan 29 2005, 06:12 PM'] You need to be clear and defend why it is wrong in some cases and why it is allowed in others.

To defend is to explain. If not, you confuse people.

You said you thought it was beautiful. Sorry, but I find no liturgical abuse beautiful.

St. Nicholas is now added to my prayer list. [/quote]
yeah, I'm not coming down on you Benedict, just wanted to make sure you understood that you can't defend something like this in general, because there are usually exceptions.

[Benedict]

[quote]yeah, I'm not coming down on you Benedict, just wanted to make sure you understood that you can't defend something like this in general, because there are usually exceptions. [/quote]
If you look back at my quote, it specifically states that it is permissible only for some peoples, not the entire Church.

So I fail to see how this distinction is being pointed out as though it were not already made.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Jan 29 2005, 05:33 PM'] That may be your opinion but keep in mind that it is a Church-sanctioned means of worship. [/quote]
it's not that important. Here you were just very broad and it is only permitted to certain people. So the distinction was made.

[i]fin[/i]

[Balthazor]

Now I really don't make any hard and fast judgments about liturgical "dancing". Because being white, and northern European my idea of Dancing is a mazurka, polka, waltz or foxtrot. In other words, the giration that other people seem to be able to accomplish and look good on a techno, hip-hop or rock and roll dance floor.... I can not accomplish *tear*.

However I usally have to restrain myself from dancing during polka mass..... I can't help it Polkas are my addiction.

Anyway I just want to point out the one alter sever in the alb with the candle in the shown video.... was not dancing. I know because I have caught myself in a mirror doing similar movements that my friends have confided to me was definately not dancing. In fact I seem to be an expert at "not dancing"... so I just thought I would share my vast expertise with you all to clear up what is and what is not "dancing" and who is doing it in this video.

[raptor13]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jan 29 2005, 04:33 PM'] from the same site:

"Our church was built for the Latin rituals. Can it be renovated to support the current rituals?
top


YES. A Latin church's focus is the Tabernacle. [b]Our focus today is the assembly and its actions.[/b]

A church's geometrical proportions give us direction for refocusing the interiors [b]from the linear focus on the Tabernacle to today's multi-focii of the assembly[/b]. St. Luke's long, narrow nave restricted options for rearrangement. St. Nicholas's more open/central plan easily allowed the important changes. In fact, the new plan fits the original architecture's volumes better than the 1904 plan."


beautifully ignorant, and we let them build our churches. [/quote]
not beautifully ignorant.... downright heretical if you ask me.

NO MASS, Novus Ordo or not, should ever be about the assembly and it's actions.

The fact that these people are building churches makes me sick. I could only choke in horror to think of what they would do to the St. Peter's Basilica should they ever have the chance of "updating it"

[DemonSlayer]

I've never seen liturgical dancing done at any Mass I've been to, and I hope I never do.

[Carnanc]

same here