"Let God sort them out"

[Paladin D]

I hear every now and then this quote that supposely has it's origins in the Crusades. A soldier goes up to a priest during a battle and asks how to discern between an ally or enemy, the priest replies "Kill them all, let God sort them out". Is this an actual quote, or an urban legend?

[Benedict]

Given the many records of every little conversation between priests and soldiers from the times of the crusades, I would say urban legend.

[mulls]

i read that some pope said it. no source.

[Justified Saint]

Refers to the massacre of Beziers in 1209 during the Albigensian Crusade. It was, in fact, never said and originated from a piece of literature entitled [i]Dialogues on Miracles[/i] written several decades after the crusade.

Edited January 31, 2005 by Justified Saint

[Paladin D]

Justified Saint, you are good.

Thanks for the replies guys.

[Justified Saint]

The author was a German monk (gasp!)

For more info on his writings: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_of_Heisterbach"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_of_Heisterbach[/url]

[Socrates]

I knew this was a Special Forces slogan.

[-I---Love]

that sounds very similar to a quote I heard a Benedictine Father say this weekend concerning the crusades.

The gist was that a soldier asked the king/ pope/ i dunno if they were to be killing all in the next city they were coming upon b/c they were mostly Christians and the response was something like, "Kill them all and God will know who shall go to Heaven or Hell."

[Brother Adam]

What's scary is that was basically what was done in the Old Testament. Israelites worship golden calf - kill them all. Peoples are occupying promised land - kill them all. lol.

[popestpiusx]

[img]http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/violent/sterb323.gif[/img]

[spathariossa]

hahaha

This used to be my signature on this phorum. I use it over on my FBC phorum still. The quote is from Abbot Arnaud-Amaury. In Latin he said "Caedite eos! Novit enim dominus qui sunt eius!" This means "Slay them all! The Lord will know His own." However, I've been translating it as "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jan 30 2005, 10:56 PM'] Refers to the massacre of Beziers in 1209 during the Albigensian Crusade. It was, in fact, never said and originated from a piece of literature entitled [i]Dialogues on Miracles[/i] written several decades after the crusade. [/quote]
That it originated from literature several decades later is fairly normal for Medieval sources. We try to get close to the source itself but it is usually impossible to find a source written exactly at the appropriate time. 2-3 decades is actually extremely good, especially considering the overlap of the German monk's lifetime with the events of the Albigensian crusades.

[Noel's angel]

never mind

Edited January 31, 2005 by Noel's angel

[Justified Saint]

[quote]That it originated from literature several decades later is fairly normal for Medieval sources. We try to get close to the source itself but it is usually impossible to find a source written exactly at the appropriate time. 2-3 decades is actually extremely good, especially considering the overlap of the German monk's lifetime with the events of the Albigensian crusades.[/quote]


spathariossa,

The source is mythical literature and not history. There are real, historical records from that time period and the saying is not recorded. Professional historians have already demonstrated that the saying was never uttered.

It is kind of like my signature. It is a popular saying attributed to Luther but he never actually said it. It is the stuff of legend.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jan 31 2005, 01:49 PM']

spathariossa,

The source is mythical literature and not history. There are real, historical records from that time period and the saying is not recorded. Professional historians have already demonstrated that the saying was never uttered.

It is kind of like my signature. It is a popular saying attributed to Luther but he never actually said it. It is the stuff of legend. [/quote]
I wasn't denying that. However I think you need to acknowledge that mythical literature, hagiography, chivalric literature, etc are all very good historical source documents. Just as the Song of Roland tells us nothing of Charlemagne, that doesn't mean it is worthless. It is a very good source for looking at 11th century opinions of muslims, Christian-Muslim relations, and of course the ways in which warfare was conducted. In the same way, mythical literature concerning the Albigensian crusades could be a treasure trove of data other than the strictly historical.

Besides which, documentation for what people actually said doesn't exist. Look at the sermon of Pope Urban II at Claremont for example. Even the trial transcripts of Joan of Arc are not going to be precisely accurate to the words used. That doesn't mean that the sources we have aren't good sources.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 31 2005, 01:53 PM'] I wasn't denying that. However I think you need to acknowledge that mythical literature, hagiography, chivalric literature, etc are all very good historical source documents. Just as the Song of Roland tells us nothing of Charlemagne, that doesn't mean it is worthless. It is a very good source for looking at 11th century opinions of muslims, Christian-Muslim relations, and of course the ways in which warfare was conducted. In the same way, mythical literature concerning the Albigensian crusades could be a treasure trove of data other than the strictly historical.

Besides which, documentation for what people actually said doesn't exist. Look at the sermon of Pope Urban II at Claremont for example. Even the trial transcripts of Joan of Arc are not going to be precisely accurate to the words used. That doesn't mean that the sources we have aren't good sources. [/quote]
Excellent points!

[Justified Saint]

[quote]I wasn't denying that. However I think you need to acknowledge that mythical literature, hagiography, chivalric literature, etc are all very good historical source documents. Just as the Song of Roland tells us nothing of Charlemagne, that doesn't mean it is worthless. It is a very good source for looking at 11th century opinions of muslims, Christian-Muslim relations, and of course the ways in which warfare was conducted. In the same way, mythical literature concerning the Albigensian crusades could be a treasure trove of data other than the strictly historical.

Besides which, documentation for what people actually said doesn't exist. Look at the sermon of Pope Urban II at Claremont for example. Even the trial transcripts of Joan of Arc are not going to be precisely accurate to the words used. That doesn't mean that the sources we have aren't good sources. [/quote]

Sounds fine, but this is getting beside the point. You may have read too much into my post if you think I don't realize that chivalric and mythical literature have their historical value. But this is a specific case where a precise statement in a very fictional work is being attributed to a historical person and it would be unwise to think that the saying was actually said. Unless you are contesting that point, then there is nothing left to be said on the matter. However, you knowledge of Medieval history and source material is very edifying and I look forward to your future contributions.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Jan 31 2005, 05:35 PM']
Sounds fine, but this is getting beside the point. You may have read too much into my post if you think I don't realize that chivalric and mythical literature have their historical value. But this is a specific case where a precise statement in a very fictional work is being attributed to a historical person and it would be unwise to think that the saying was actually said. Unless you are contesting that point, then there is nothing left to be said on the matter. However, you knowledge of Medieval history and source material is very edifying and I look forward to your future contributions. [/quote]
Oh I agree with you there. In fact, I daresay it would be impossible to quote anyone from the middle ages unless he himself wrote it down in a book. However, the statement being attributed to Abbot Arnaud might not be entirely without basis. Afterall, the massacre did occur at Beziers and if I am not mistaken the good Abbot was punished at a later date. That a roughly contemporary Catholic could think he might say such a thing is perhaps as telling as whether or not he actually said it.