Qwertyuiop Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote]Do you have questions about the Catholic church? Do you want to discuss and/or debate issues with Catholics? Do you just want to know more about the Catholic faith? Go to [url="http://www.phatmass.com"]http://www.phatmass.com[/url] and click on "phorum". There are plenty of friendly Catholics ready to answer your questions and/or be challenged by your arguments against the church. Remember, we keep it civil--rudeness is not allowed![/quote] Well, here I am now, entertain me. Okay, kidding aside, I actually do have some questions I wanted to ask you. 1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism? 2. What is the Bible for you? Just curious. Peace and unity. Q.
Qwertyuiop Posted February 8, 2005 Author Posted February 8, 2005 To continue from the first question... Would it be correct to say that you don't view christianity as being a religion, but a word to describe whole buch of religions with a similar theme? I'm trying to understand the us-them arrangement that seems to be at work here. When thinking about the world's religions, do you mainly see there being "us, the catholics, and all the other religions" or "us, the christians, and all the other religions"? Oh, and about all I know about, how catholism differs from all the other christian religions, is that you have the Pope with that nice hat and that you go to confess once in a while. With this it's hard to see the us-them thing. Q.
mamalove Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 Let me be the first to welcome you to phatmass! :wave: Sit back, relax, because there is a ton of information about to come your way. Though it is really pretty simple to those who have grown up Catholic or who have studied it, the Catholic faith is quite complex. There are many differences between Catholics and Protestants, but you would be surpised by how many similarities there are too. The Catholic Church is the church that Christ himself began. We are the One, True Church. The biggest thing that sets us apart from Protestants is the fact that we have the Real Presence. Meaning, our most treasured belief is that Christ is truely, physically present in the Eucharist (the communion host). No, we don't believe that all other christians are going to hell. The bible to us is the same as it is to other christians, but sadly, Catholics are notrious for not being well versed in it. But, it isn't the sole form of Christ's teachings. Catholics believe that the teachings of Christ come through scripture and tradition. Some things were written down for us, and the rest was passed down to us. In a nutshell, the Catholic Faith is the complete form of Christianity.
Brother Adam Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 8 2005, 05:50 AM'] Well, here I am now, entertain me. Okay, kidding aside, I actually do have some questions I wanted to ask you. 1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism? 2. What is the Bible for you? Just curious. Peace and unity. Q. [/quote] 1. No it is not our view that all non-Catholics go to hell. 2. The Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. The Bible is a canon of 73 sacred books which is God's revelation to man. As a non-Catholic, how do you explain the extra-biblical formation of the Bible? Do you believe that the list of canonical books is infallible? Welcome to phatmass! ~Bro. Adam, Catholic Convert.
thessalonian Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism? Are all non Catholics going to hell? Well, I think the good samaritan who was of a relgion that was a mix of Judaism and paganism likely made heavens gates. The three wise men were neither Christian or Jew and they saw God. Cornelius was said to be a rigtheous and God fearing man BEFORE he knew Christ. Romans 2:15 says that the law is written on all men's hearts such that none is without excuse. And yet it says that some of the gentiles actually do what the law requires. So I make no judgements on anyone's salvation. It is a Catholic axiom of the faith that each man is responsible for the light he has been given by God. Luke 12 says "to the one who knew he will be treated as the unbeliver, but TO THE ONE WHO DID NOT KNOW, he will recieve but few lashes". Thus what one is ignorant of he is not culpable for. There is actually a higher level of responsibility for us Catholics. James 3:1 indicates that the one with the greater understanding of the truth will be judged accoringly. But in Titus Paul also indicates that there will be greater reward for these. You will be given light on this board. What you do with it is your responsibility. Why Catholicism. First because relativism cannot be true. Christianity is not a bunch of equal religions. Indifferentism is little better than realtivism. Some have more truth than others and none comes close to Catholicism which is the fullness of the truth. 2. What is the Bible for you? It is the word of God. But the Word of God is not equal to the Bible. I.e. one must have the proper understandings that go with the scriptures to have the Word of God. The example I use is there is a verse in Corinthians that talks about baptism of the dead. Not even in a negative way. Now the Mormons say, well then we should be doing proxy baptisms and baptizing our dead relatives who were not baptized. Do they have the word of God in having this false understanding? They have the scriptures so they must right? Wrong. They have to have proper understanding as well. Paul says "hold fast to the traditionSSSSS (scripture is a tradition) you have recieved, whether BY WORD OF MOUTH, or in writing from us. 2 Thes 2:15. So there is an oral component and a written component of God's word. The Bible never says that it stands alone as God's word. Others have answered well. God bless in your journey and welcome.
Qwertyuiop Posted February 9, 2005 Author Posted February 9, 2005 Thanks for the replies, everyone. [quote name='mamalove']The biggest thing that sets us apart from Protestants is the fact that we have the Real Presence. Meaning, our most treasured belief is that Christ is truely, physically present in the Eucharist (the communion host). [/quote] That sounds familiar. I've read about these things, I guess. But I still quite don't see why would that make such a big difference. You say that is the biggest, yet it hardly seems enough to deem someone to Hell. [quote name='Brother Adam'] No it is not our view that all non-Catholics go to hell. [/quote] What.. but.. why would it matter then? Whether one is a catholic or not, I mean. If someone is not going to Hell, she's going to Heaven. And if she's going to Heaven, then she's doing God's Will, right? I'm confused, this all seems contradictory. If salvation is not about being a catholic, then what determines who gets saved and who doesn't? [quote name='thessalonian'] Well, I think the good samaritan who was of a relgion that was a mix of Judaism and paganism likely made heavens gates. [/quote] The good samaritan did a good deed, because he was a good person. Do all good persons go to Heaven regardless of their religious beliefs? [quote name='Brother Adam'] As a non-Catholic, how do you explain the extra-biblical formation of the Bible? [/quote] I'm sorry, I don't quite know what you mean by this. Why does this need explaining? I mean, it's not like the Bible could have formed itself. Someone made it. [quote name='Brother Adam'] Do you believe that the list of canonical books is infallible? [/quote] I think that literal translation of the Bible (creationism) is just plain silly. Laws made 2000 years ago probably lowered (for example) levels of violence back then, but in todays societies they would likely only increase it. Similarly, when you explain things to children, you explain them in the manner they could grasp the idea of them. Not necessary in the way that things precisely are. I like to think we've grown up a bit in the last 2000 years. [quote name='Brother Adam'] The Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. The Bible is a canon of 73 sacred books which is God's revelation to man. [/quote] But you reject creationism, right? I mean, you don't interpret the Bible literally? Again, I see this as contradictory. [quote name='thessalonian'] First because relativism cannot be true. Christianity is not a bunch of equal religions. Indifferentism is little better than realtivism. [/quote] You often hear that "every religion is the same religion", but I don't think that. I think it's a very naive way to look at it. [quote name='mamalove'] the Catholic faith is quite complex. [/quote] Perhaps I'm drawn to simplicity then, because I find this confusing. It all seems so clear to you, so I'm trying to understand your point of view. Q.
jasJis Posted February 9, 2005 Posted February 9, 2005 Qwertyuiop, God bless you. Your name is EASY to type! Just a quick and simple explanation. Catholics beleive that we are the Original and Complete Christian faith. We beleive we are Saved by Grace ALONE. We beleive we are judged solely by how each of us respond to whatever Grace God chooses to bestow on each of us. In a perfect world, everyone would be Catholic because we all would be saying Yes to God's Grace. Catholic just means Universal. The Good Samaritan was responding YES to Grace when in his heart he was moved by grace to recognize someone in need. The Samaritan was not Graced to be born and brought up Jewish in which case he would have been Graced to have parents, family, and friends and a culture where he would have been exposed to more opportunities to learn and know about God. But though the Samaratin was limited in the Grace given to him, he responded 100%. It's just like the story of the Master who gives some of his servants different amounts of Talent and how only the one who did nothing with it got in trouble. People who respond Yes to Grace are in a 'state of grace' and would go to heaven. Everything that is Good is from God. By the same token, those who respond NO to Grace are saying No to God. The Jews who walked by the hurt guy were given plenty of grace opportunities to have known better, but they said NO to Grace and thus were not seen behaving in a good way. God alone judges the persons heart. We can easily guess that God was displeased with those who walked by, but we don't know if God would condemn them. Catholicism is Full Christianity. It's as simple or as complicated as it needs to be for you and your relationship with God and Jesus. The REAL Presence is all about God coming to be with you and I in a physical representation of His Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ so of course it's very important to Catholics because the Real Presence is the ultimate Gift of Grace to us because we need Jesus and Jesus wants to physically give Grace to us. It's the whole point of God becoming Man and sacrificing Himself for us. To reject the Real Presence is to reject God and His Self Sacrifice on the Cross for us. It would sorta be like a Pentecostal refusing to accept the Holy Spirit.
Qwertyuiop Posted February 9, 2005 Author Posted February 9, 2005 [quote name='jasJis'] Your name is EASY to type! [/quote] It's not very pretty name, though! I had trouble registering, got frustrated and ended up with that name. [quote name='jasJis'] People who respond Yes to Grace are in a 'state of grace' and would go to heaven. Everything that is Good is from God. By the same token, those who respond NO to Grace are saying No to God. [/quote] Hm. But you see, I don't understand how you are supposed to be able to tell whether you are saying yes or no. [quote name='Qwertyuiop'] Laws made 2000 years ago [/quote] Quoting myself here. I was referring to the OT so parts that paragraph doesn't make sense. I didn't seem to be able to edit my last post. Q.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 9, 2005 Posted February 9, 2005 Out of curiosity, which forum are you from?
jasJis Posted February 9, 2005 Posted February 9, 2005 [quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 9 2005, 10:00 AM'] Hm. But you see, I don't understand how you are supposed to be able to tell whether you are saying yes or no. [/quote] What do you mean? If you are trying to say Yes, and praying, and being open to the Holy Spirit, you are probably saying Yes. God knows your heart. God is very merciful. God sacrificed His Son to atone for your shortcomings. God is patient. God is merciful. He helps us by moving our hearts, by establishing a visible Church as a source of Grace, by gracing others to help us, by giving us Scripture as a source of Grace, by giving us Grace in Sacraments. That's whay Paul means about working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We should never take salvation for granted, but we should never doubt that Grace will be made available. Faith is by Grace. Works is by Grace. Works in Faith are us responding to Grace and it develops our Faith and we mature in Faith and can recognize and respond to Grace more readily. It's a journey and a process where our efforts are judged by a merciful and loving God. God gives us grace to just TRY, and He will grace us further to reach the Destination (His arms).
Theoketos Posted February 9, 2005 Posted February 9, 2005 God is Love! We are only saved by His Grace!
cathqat Posted February 9, 2005 Posted February 9, 2005 [quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 8 2005, 04:50 AM'] 2. What is the Bible for you? [/quote] I think the best answer to this question is to give you a link to [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2REVEL.HTM"][i]Dei Verbum[/i], the Vatican II Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation[/url]. It's not very long, it's pretty simple to understand, and it's the official word on what Catholics believe about scripture.
rufiokicks Posted February 10, 2005 Posted February 10, 2005 [quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 8 2005, 04:50 AM'] 1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism?[/quote] The question of salvation is a big one. As humans, we are not in the place to judge and condemn people. Catholics don't believe that other religions are going to Hell. Not because we think everyone is right, but because we don't know who will ever get to Heaven. That decision is up to God, not Man. The best we can do is live a righteous life. Judging people is a sin that should be avoided. Judge not lest though be judged. Or something like this. I'll finish later, I have class. Remind me to talk about Protestantism and the Bible, someone mentioned that.
Qwertyuiop Posted February 11, 2005 Author Posted February 11, 2005 [quote name='Raphael'] Out of curiosity, which forum are you from? [/quote] I found the post while lurking around somewhere at Atheist network and decided this might be a good place to find out more about catholism (since I've been looking into lots of religions lately). I'm pretty agnostic myself. Sometimes you jsut have that "what if you really end up in Hell" kind of thought, which is why I'm here now, I suppose. [quote name='jasJis'] What do you mean? If you are trying to say Yes, and praying, and being open to the Holy Spirit, you are probably saying Yes. [/quote] I only remember praying once and I was something like 10 years old at that time. Nothing happened. I've never felt any Holy Spirits either. So how would I know what to say yes to. I don't think this is really going anywhere. Thanks for your time, but my beef is with faith rather than catholism. Q.
Qwertyuiop Posted February 11, 2005 Author Posted February 11, 2005 [quote name='Qwertyuiop'] my beef is with faith rather than catholism. [/quote] No, you know what, correct that. I read some threads here about "SSA", as you call it, and if that's defined as sinning, then yeah, I have a beef with catholism. Q.
Apotheoun Posted February 11, 2005 Posted February 11, 2005 [quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 11 2005, 06:25 AM'][quote name='Qwertyuiop'] my beef is with faith rather than catholism. [/quote] No, you know what, correct that. I read some threads here about "SSA", as you call it, and if that's defined as sinning, then yeah, I have a beef with catholism. Q.[/quote] Although the homosexual inclination (SSA) is not in itself a sin, it is, like all forms of concupiscence, an objective disorder arising from the fall of Adam; and as a consequence, it must be resisted by the power of God's grace.
jasJis Posted February 11, 2005 Posted February 11, 2005 Qwertyuiop, Fair enough. I understand your beef with 'faith'. Your beef is more fundamental. Faith is the result of philosophy and logic. If you want to discuss thinks from a logical/philosophical direction, that may be better and more fruitful. I too had a HUGE problem with organized religion/faiths even though I grew up as a Catholic from infancy. I came back to Catholicism much later in life from my core beliefs and understandings of logic and philosophy. Faith is often a development of logic and most people need the logic to have any sort of developed faith. If you would like, let's drop back to your fundamental philosophy of why we exist OR what humans are. Catholics will often tell you that our religion is the Fullness of Christianity. Despite what many people will want to tell you, what that really means is that Catholic theology can deal with every single aspect of philosophy and science and logic at any level or sophistication or simplicity. As far as the same sex thing you see argued about here. Catholic thought on this is rooted on the heirarchy of Truths that all humanity has dignity as persons as individuals and as a society. The logic tree from that fundamental root derives down to answering questions about the 'ideal' role of a person in society while dealing with imperfections and allowing that some imperfections may be genetic or may be societal influence or may be personal choice and how does that reflect human dignity back into society as a whole. It's not a simple question, and simple answers come up short. In other words, Christianity can identify an "optimum" behavior or role for a human, but also can identify where we ALL fall short, but that is not an excuse to not strive for the ideal or a reason to condemn those who are not at the ideal, but it does condemn those who will not try to better themselves either for the sake of human dignity of that person as an individual or the sake of human dignity of that person as a member of a larger organisim (society).
Phazzan Posted February 11, 2005 Posted February 11, 2005 Qwertyuiop, I really like your style. :thumb: You come here, full of enthusiasm, eager to learn about the Catholic faith. So you ask a couple open ended questions, then you set about to debunk every reply... albeit unsucessfully. Keep it up dude!
rufiokicks Posted February 11, 2005 Posted February 11, 2005 [quote name='rufiokicks' date='Feb 10 2005, 02:57 PM'] Remind me to talk about Protestantism and the Bible, someone mentioned that. [/quote] I remeber someone bringing up Protestants and the Bible but I'm too lazy to go find the original quote so I'll just quote myself. I'm so cool. One of the biggest issues Protestants have with the Catholic Church is the differences in our Bibles. Catholics feature books such as Maccabees (sp?) that can't be found in the Protestant Bible. They aren't included because these books were not found in Hebrew or Greek like the other books in the Bible so the Protestants dismissed them while the Catholics embraced them. I'm glad we did too; we finally found the Dead Sea Scrolls which include this books in Hebrew. This is now used by many Catholics as further proof of the ultimate Truth. If you really want to read up on the Catholic faith, I highly recommend a Catechism. The Catholic Cathecism features the Catholic beliefs on [u]many[/u] issues backed by Scripture and scholars. I hope I just pointed out things you maybe didn't know. Sorry if I made you guys read a bunch of stuff you already know...
Qwertyuiop Posted February 11, 2005 Author Posted February 11, 2005 Seeing that the threads about ssa are closed, I won't talk about it anymore, if it's not appropriate. [quote name='Phazzan'] Qwertyuiop, I really like your style. You come here, full of enthusiasm, eager to learn about the Catholic faith. So you ask a couple open ended questions, then you set about to debunk every reply... albeit unsucessfully. [/quote] Well I didn't come here just to ask what the truth was and then blindly accept that. That would make no sense; you could have said anything. I came here to understand and consider your POV. How could you accept something you didn't understand, anyway? Oh, and I'm not a dude. And what do you mean unsuccessfully [quote name='jisJas'] Faith is often a development of logic and most people need the logic to have any sort of developed faith. [/quote] Are you supposed to feel God then? Or Grace or something. Is that the way it begins? I mean, where do you draw the conclusions from? [quote name='jisJas'] If you would like, let's drop back to your fundamental philosophy of why we exist OR what humans are. [/quote] The Big Question: why do we exist? I don't know. How could I, I can barely understand what you are all talking about What you see in humans is the product of evolution. What you don't see is the soul part, which is unknown by definition, I think. Ha, a lot of I-don't-knows. Only absolute I know is math Like I said, I guess I'm pretty agnostic. [quote name='rufiokicks'] Catholics feature books such as Maccabees (sp?) that can't be found in the Protestant Bible. [/quote] Catholics have a different Bible? Didn't know that. Interesting. I'll have a look at that Cathecism. Q.
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