Confessionator741 Posted October 26, 2003 Posted October 26, 2003 im a little lost here.. ok. so..mexican/hispanic church's can use blue vestments...right? well then what classifies a church as mexican or hispanic. My church is like 90% white(not that it matters) and i am mexican. Becuase there is a hispanic family in the parish..would that give them the right to use the vestments??? B
Katholikos Posted October 26, 2003 Posted October 26, 2003 EWTN Could you give me a hint about where I could find the documentation at EWTN, since it's not in the GIRM? Thanks.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 26, 2003 Posted October 26, 2003 not everything is in the GIRM. Go to Q & A and type in priests vestments, or blue vestments. its called "spanish privledge(sp)"
cmotherofpirl Posted October 26, 2003 Posted October 26, 2003 im a little lost here.. ok. so..mexican/hispanic church's can use blue vestments...right? well then what classifies a church as mexican or hispanic. My church is like 90% white(not that it matters) and i am mexican. Becuase there is a hispanic family in the parish..would that give them the right to use the vestments??? B The Church in Mexico. sorry if I wasn't clear.
Katholikos Posted October 26, 2003 Posted October 26, 2003 Cmom wrote: The Church in Mexico. sorry if I wasn't clear. Oh. I also thought you meant that this exception applied to Mexican priests and parishes in the United States. Thanks for the clarification. Every country has its GIRM.
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 It is important to realize that the Church has different guidelines for liturgical colors depending on what part of the world you are in. Different cultures have different meanings for different cultures. For example, in Japanese culture, white is viewed as a sad color and a color for mourning. Therefore, it would not make much sense to a Japanese person to use white for Easter or Christmas. I believe cmom is correct in the fact that in Latin America they have received an indult from Rome to use blue vestments for the Blessed Virgin. In the United States, this indult has not been granted, however, and they should therefore not be used.
Confessionator741 Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 I checked. I went into the presacrasty in my church and went through the closets. I FOUND IT! I LIVE IN PA, not in south america, and we do have blue vestments. a few of them actually. I asked the helper in there (in the presacrasty, not in the closet) what the blue was for. She said that Fr. Gallahger told her that they were for marian feasts, and we use them all the time!! If were not supposed to use them....then...whay do we have them and use them? B
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 I checked. I went into the presacrasty in my church and went through the closets. I FOUND IT! I LIVE IN PA, not in south america, and we do have blue vestments. a few of them actually. I asked the helper in there (in the presacrasty, not in the closet) what the blue was for. She said that Fr. Gallahger told her that they were for marian feasts, and we use them all the time!! If were not supposed to use them....then...whay do we have them and use them? B Probably for the same reason many parishes use glass patens and chalices, change the readings or psalm, omit the creed or the Gloria, sing songs not worthy of a Catholic Mass, change the words of prayers, take the readings from some sheet of paper instead of the Lectionary, say "May Almighty God bless US," and other liturgical abuses. They disregard, or don't bother to read, the General Instructions of the Roman Missal. I am really sorry, and I truly mean that, if this post sounds mean-spirited or condescending, I just can't think of a nicer way to say it. Basicly, that's what it comes down to. It is either ignorance of what the instructions call for or a flat out refusal to follow them.
willguy Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 g) Festive or more noble vestments can be used on more solemn days, even if not of the color of the day. However, as regards liturgical colors, the Conference of Bishops may define and propose to the Holy See adaptations which respond to the needs and genius of the peoples. Could this warrent the wearing of blue?
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 Could this warrent the wearing of blue? g) Festive or more noble vestments can be used on more solemn days, even if not of the color of the day. However, as regards liturgical colors, the Conference of Bishops may define and propose to the Holy See adaptations which respond to the needs and genius of the peoples. (emphasis mine) [Here is what the US bishops requested and received in that regard] h) Gold or silver colored vestments may be worn on more solemn occasions in the dioceses of the United States of America. Sorry, nothing about blue.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 I checked. I went into the presacrasty in my church and went through the closets. I FOUND IT! I LIVE IN PA, not in south america, and we do have blue vestments. a few of them actually. I asked the helper in there (in the presacrasty, not in the closet) what the blue was for. She said that Fr. Gallahger told her that they were for marian feasts, and we use them all the time!! If were not supposed to use them....then...whay do we have them and use them? B Which diocese?
Theologian in Training Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 Theo, when will this happen? Wish I could attend your ordination! Then you'll have to drop "in training" from your name! You've been so helpful to so many of us at phatmass, we feel like you are "our priest." It happened yesterday at 3:00. I created a thread called "Acolyte," which is what I received yesterday, asking for prayers. I am now officially a minister of the Eucharist...I can expose, repose, and give communion, if there is a need. However, I cannot do benediction...yet God Bless
Adeodatus Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 Congratulations Theologian in Training!!!! The Church in Spain is allowed to use blue vestments because it's an ancient custom among them (for Marian feasts). And blue used to be used in the Sarum Rite in England before the Deformation (sorry, Reformation). I suspect many parishes get away with blue now because the vestments are a combination of blue and white, so they can say it's a white vestment with a lot of blue on it. Just like you can have white with red or white with green and it counts as white, plain white. The church I got to here uses black vestments a lot, for funerals and All Souls' Day etc. The black ones are among the nicest, coz' they're lined with gold and have beautiful embroidery on it. A lot of people think black is inappropriate because the Resurrection cancels every single trace of sorrow etc. I don't think it does. I mean the Resurrection gives us a firm hope, but it doesn't stop death being a tragedy. I always remember that in the Gospel of John, the shortest verse is 'Jesus wept', at Lazarus' tomb. And if my God can cry at his friend's death, then so can I!!! The colour of vestments like life: sometimes happy, sometimes sad, sometimes glorious----but always full of trust and hope.
Aloysius Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 Which diocese? Diocese of Pittsburgh... St. Ferdinand's Church in CBerry just like me ummm im not quite sure what i should do with this. i think nxt time i have a chance im gonna talk to Father Gallegher about it and bring up the US GIRM and see what he says. cuz i would like to see more adherence to the Church's authority, even in small things, to shine forth more unity within the Church. "May Almighty God bless US," is it sposedta be "May Almighty God bless you" ? i'll havta listen next time they do it. i think ive heard it both ways on different occassions with different priests. i'd like to add also it's the same reason why LifeTeen says "The Mass never ends, it must be lived" when clearly in the GIRM they're sposedta say "The Mass has ended" or another of the THREE choices. there are three choices and LifeTeen can't pick one of em, they havta rewrite it without the consent of the Vatican... ergh
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 yes, it's supposed to be "May almighty God bless YOU." When a priest says "US" it is like he is denying his priestly office. A priest can give a blessing and he wouldn't bless himself. He blesses the people. Therefore, he should say "YOU" not "US."
ThereseFlower Posted October 28, 2003 Posted October 28, 2003 Huh... I could have sworn blue was used around here. (Meaning where I'm from.) It could be that I am confusing things from the time that I worked in the office of a Lutheran (ELCA) church. Their color for Advent is blue. Is there any reason why it is specifically left out? (Forgive me if someone already answered this.)
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 28, 2003 Posted October 28, 2003 I don't think there is any set reason other than the fact that Rome hasn't approved it. The GIRM only tells us what to do. If it told us everything not to do, you'd never finish. For example, during the Our Father, many places hold hands. The GIRM doesn't say not to they say. Well, it also doesn't say to not talk on a cell phone, not to smoke, and not to chew gum while praying the Our Father. Likewise, for the Dioceses of the United States, the only colors listed as licit are red, white, violet, green, rose, black, gold, and silver. If they were to list all possible colors that can't be used, they'd never finish.
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