For AtheistAlex

[AtheistAlex]

[quote name='jesusisalive3' date='Feb 19 2005, 08:04 PM'] Without belief? Melchisedec, all atheists share a belief. That belief is "There is no God". That is a belief, and from that basic belief, many others have stemmed (such as "There is no absolute truth") and from those beliefs, systems have resulted. (for example: Eugenics, Marxism, Humanism, Darwinism, etc.) And while some caused atrocities, some have helped people. However, all of those who did what all here would call wrong (atrocities in communist countries, the holocaust, etc) did so without conflicting their belief system. This is different in christianity. If the beliefs about what has happened are to be believed, (God created mankind in his image, if He sent his only begotten Son to die for our failures/sins, etc.) then the basic and intrinsical belief of christianity is "God is love". From there, The atrocities commited by these "christians" (Salem witch trials, the KKK, etc) were done against that belief system. Because of this, comparison between the two sets of atrocities becomes irrelavent. Because a christian who follows the beliefs of the church entirely (no more, no less) does no wrong. (one of christianity's main points, conversion {changing}, is why christians still do wrong, we do not comepletely follow our beliefs.) However, an athiest who follows their beliefs as an athiest (also no more, no less) will have no problem with either helping the needy or commiting an atrocity. Peace out, S. [/quote]
Actually atheism, as I know it, is a lack of belief.

[jesusisalive3]

[quote]Actually atheism, as I know it, is a lack of belief.[/quote]
dude, it has beliefs, even if all of it's beliefs are beliefs in a "not". (God does NOT exist) A belief is not required to be in "something", a belief can be a belief in "nothing." and it still is a belief.

Edited February 21, 2005 by jesusisalive3

[AtheistAlex]

No, not neccesarily. It can be the idea that one cannot prove God's existence is also atheism

[Socrates]

That is agnosticism, not atheism. Agnosticism says that we cannot know if there is a God. Atheism means one beleives there is no God.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jesusisalive3' date='Feb 19 2005, 08:04 PM']Without belief?  Melchisedec, all atheists share a belief.  That belief is "There is no God".  That is a belief, and from that basic belief, many others have stemmed (such as "There is no absolute truth") and from those beliefs, systems have resulted. (for example: Eugenics, Marxism, Humanism, Darwinism, etc.) And while some caused atrocities, some have helped people.  However, all of those who did what all here would call wrong (atrocities in communist countries, the holocaust, etc) did so without conflicting their belief system. This is different in christianity.  If the beliefs about what has happened are to be believed, (God created mankind in his image, if He sent his only begotten Son to die for our failures/sins, etc.)  then  the basic and intrinsical belief of christianity is "God is love".  From there,  The atrocities commited by these "christians" (Salem witch trials, the KKK, etc) were done against that belief system.                                                                        Because of this, comparison between the two sets of atrocities becomes irrelavent.  Because a christian who follows the beliefs of the church entirely (no more, no less) does no wrong. (one of christianity's main points, conversion {changing}, is why christians still do wrong, we do not comepletely follow our beliefs.)  However, an athiest who follows their beliefs as an athiest (also no more, no less) will have no problem with either helping the needy or commiting an atrocity.                                                                                                          Peace out,                                                                                                        S.[/quote]
Put it this way. Thats like saying 'Nothing' is 'Something'. Its a lack of belief . Period.

now I got to say what you said was absolute bullshit. I cant help but to call it that.


[quote] However, an athiest who follows their beliefs as an athiest (also no more, no less) will have no problem with either helping the needy or commiting an atrocity.[/quote]

There is always this absoulte morality debate and the bible. So I will touch upon it in many respects. Slavery is condoned in the bible and even by jesus. I even stated in a previous post several quotes from jesus about beating your slave lightly. So to be a good christian, than its to basiclly agree and follow slavery. Its everywhere in the bible and its not on one tablet as a sin! I would like for you to point out to me where god says its not right to have someone as your slave? Please I would love to see it.

To an atheist, slavery is a crime. Why? Because it harms people. Throughout civilzation we have developed and refined how we treat each other. Most of this stems from the actions of hurting people through various means for various reasons. An atheist has a moral code they live by. One of these basic tenets is something that anyone can understand. Harming a human is wrong. It never needed to be written down to be considered a crime. And its been a crime , long before the bible had appeared.

You must understand that the bible is open to interpetation, whether you like it or not. We have many versions of christianity around the world, with the 'true' interpetation of it. But yet the criteria for not going against their beleifs is vastly different from each other. Your statement, god is love is vague. How does that mean that committing an atrocity is wrong? Considering the slaughter that goes on in the bible. I will live you with this quote from an atheist who had to defend his morality aswell:

[i]"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."[/i]

[AtheistAlex]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 21 2005, 01:14 PM'] That is agnosticism, not atheism. Agnosticism says that we cannot know if there is a God. Atheism means one beleives there is no God. [/quote]
The idea of Agnosticism as a separate faction from Atheism has been, to me, a way to divide people with many times, common interests.

Agnosticism, as I have it, is actually known to many as "weak" atheism, with "there is no God" atheism known as "strong" atheism.

Atheism, simply put, is a lack of belief in a God or gods. It is unfortunately, defined differently by the dictionaries online.

[-Ryan-]

I see the arguement that a person needs an eventual reckoning at the end of his/her life in order to ensure they have some motivation to be objectively good as fallacious. (I realize this is actually a central concept to a lot of people here, and I apologize if my opinion offends). People are motivated and restricted by any number of things, often times simple emotional investment (which is ironically, pretty hard to define). I could have an affinity for frogs, and thus not torture and maime them, and that would be a morality of sorts. It might be arbitrary, but it would still be what is commonly defined as a set of morals, it may even have a lot in common with the set of morals laid out in your bible. (Obviously, not the frog bit, but in a more detailed hypothetical case this could be true)

If someone believes something identical to you, but for completely different reasons, do you condemn the person or the motivation? (or even that?) It seems like there is a lot of labeling going on here that divisivly attacks people or groups of people, and it's both a little sad and somewhat amusing at the same time. I suspect Melchisedec and Socrates would react to many situations in our society similarly, if not identically. With some key differences, at least key to the both of you, but probably not to me.

[-Ryan-]

Also, as an agnostic, I don't agree with the idea that Atheism and Agnosticism are the same things. I don't claim to know if there's a God, nor do I care if there is one. I think that's intrinsically different than saying with authority that there is no God. On religious matters, we probably have less in common than you'd think, as I tend to be completely apathetic (I'm here for the pool jam) until it starts to affect something im responsible for, but in my mind I don't seperate religious motivations for people doing things I don't like from secular ones.

I'm not sure if we're typical of athiesm and agnosticism, but at least I can add a little empyrical fuel for the fire.

[AtheistAlex]

Understood. I am saying this:

Atheism is only, merely, and nothing more than, a LACK of belief in a God or gods. This means one doesn't have to really care at all to be an atheist. They just need to NOT believe. And that's possible from a great many perspectives, and under that definition, agnosticism is quite obviously a faction of atheism. Agnosticism is to LACK supernatural knowledge, so it is, in reference to religion, a section of atheists that do not profess a knowledge of God's existence.

Oh, and hey Ryan, wassup!

Making cake for one,

Alex

[Catalyst]

Disregarding everything that everyone else said because I don't want to read what everyone else said. Here is a random fact; Atheism is a religion in its self, as you do worship something. You may think man is the highest form of being or how much you meditate on the oppoisite sex...every single believe is a religion on its own, however truth is not relative and there is only one Truth and one way and one life. Jesus.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Catalyst

[God Conquers]

Atheism is the belief in the absence of a God... hence a theism: no belief in God

It isn't a non-belief, or not caring.

If that is how you define yourself, then it is possible you are agnostic and not an atheist.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Feb 28 2005, 08:16 PM'] Disregarding everything that everyone else said because I don't want to read what everyone else said. Here is a random fact; Atheism is a religion in its self, as you do worship something. You may think man is the highest form of being or how much you meditate on the oppoisite sex...every single believe is a religion on its own, however truth is not relative and there is only one Truth and one way and one life. Jesus. [/quote]
Even if what you are saying was true, atheism would not be the religion in such a situation. The belief in '"man" as the highest form of being' or 'meditation on the opposite sex' would be something separate from atheism.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Feb 28 2005, 08:16 PM'] Disregarding everything that everyone else said because I don't want to read what everyone else said. Here is a random fact; Atheism is a religion in its self, as you do worship something. You may think man is the highest form of being or how much you meditate on the oppoisite sex...every single believe is a religion on its own, however truth is not relative and there is only one Truth and one way and one life. Jesus. [/quote]
Its very clear that you have no idea on what your talking about. Can you answer this?

Is nothing something? If so, than what is nothing?

Atheism is just a lack of belief. You can convince yourself its a religion because your mind cannot comprehend a lack of theist beleif. How can atheist worship when it means:

WORSHIP

1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

All of the above being contrary to atheism. Have a sip of your jones town punch.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Melchisedec

[God Conquers]

Catalyst, I think you are describing secular or atheistic humanism.

[Catalyst]

you must have faith to believe that there is no God...it goes both ways. Thats why its a religion. You put you faith into a theory. Its why Christianity isn't a religion.

[AtheistAlex]

What has this become?
What are you guys talking about?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Mar 2 2005, 07:05 PM'] you must have faith to believe that there is no God...it goes both ways. Thats why its a religion. You put you faith into a theory. Its why Christianity isn't a religion. [/quote]
Your getting dumber by the minute. God requires faith because there is NO proof of a god. let me spell it out for you again corky:

Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

So I do not believe in a god because there is no proof or material evidence of one. So Atheism does NOT require faith. And you contradicted yourself too. Christianity IS a religion. It relies heavily on faith of the bible among many things. Atheism relies on logic and reason, religion relies on faith. I dont expect you to comprehend, but the record must be set straight.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Mar 2 2005, 07:05 PM'] you must have faith to believe that there is no God...it goes both ways. Thats why its a religion. You put you faith into a theory. Its why Christianity isn't a religion. [/quote]
Please, do explain what kind of faith you have to have in order to believe that there is no supreme being.

[Catalyst]

alright, you say there's no cement evidence that God exists. You should also know there's no cement evidence that He doesn't.

You base your beliefs on logic and reason? You seem to need to think about that statement a little bit harder as a man who reasons has no need to call another a name for the lone reason to try and belittle another and build youself up. This isn't a school yard. yes atheism needs faith because its strong belief in a theory only. Not facts.

Its a faith or a strong belief that there is no God, especially when all of creation is a testimony of Him.


you one of those types who believe that truth is relative to the person?


i didn't contradict myself by the way. There's just a lack of understanding between us.

Edited March 3, 2005 by Catalyst

[Catalyst]

no proof bro? come by me, we'll hang out and i'll take you places as words can only take us so far and actions say the rest.