Clergy sex abuse crisis 'is not over'

[RemnantRules]

Priests can't be married.
That's why there are two seperate Sacraments for this.

Also, if priests should get married then why can't they become sisters too? It sounds crazy but so does them getting married.

Imagine a married priest....Has children and everytime some huge Milestone happens in their lives he couldn't be there for them b/c his devotion to his church has made him be at other places at other times. It wouldn't be fair to either party. At our parish we have two married priests, obviously converted priests, and they have a very difficult time scheduling their lives b/c in marriage you promise your whole life to that one person until death do you part and in religous you promise your whole life to the church...ugh I pray for them everyday.

I think if you really prayed about it and thought logically about it you would see it is BEST for priests not to be married.

[Guest]

[quote name='RemnantRules' date='Feb 24 2005, 04:13 AM'] Priests can't be married.
That's why there are two seperate Sacraments for this.

Also, if priests should get married then why can't they become sisters too? It sounds crazy but so does them getting married.

Imagine a married priest....Has children and everytime some huge Milestone happens in their lives he couldn't be there for them b/c his devotion to his church has made him be at other places at other times. It wouldn't be fair to either party. At our parish we have two married priests, obviously converted priests, and they have a very difficult time scheduling their lives b/c in marriage you promise your whole life to that one person until death do you part and in religous you promise your whole life to the church...ugh I pray for them everyday.

I think if you really prayed about it and thought logically about it you would see it is BEST for priests not to be married. [/quote]
i see where your comeing from
makes good sence to
God bless

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Priests can't be married.
That's why there are two seperate Sacraments for this.

Also, if priests should get married then why can't they become sisters too? It sounds crazy but so does them getting married.[/quote]

I know I'm new around here but...allow me to object

Both Scripture and Sacred Tradition permit priests to be married. We must remember that not only in the Eastern Catholic Church this tradition has been unbroken since the Apostolic age but that one of Jesus' healing miracles was performed on St Peter's mother-in-law. The first Pope, the rock upon which the Church is built, was himself married and according to legend his wife was martyred for the faith. Naturally, the Church maintains the right to change these practices thats why since the Patristic period married Bishops have been banned in East and West and how we came to have a completely celibate priesthood in the Roman Patriarchate. Nonetheless, I would be diametrically opposed to the use of fact that we have two seperate Sacraments for the Holy Orders and Holy Matrimony as evidence against a married priesthood. Precisely because of the evidence of Scripture and Church History.

The reason we have those sacraments and the other five is because that was what Jesus told us we should have. Anything else we might discover from them we learn from Holy Mother Church, and according to her there is no doctrinal reasons why priests cannot be married. It is within her rights at any moment in time to open the priesthood to married men according to the Divine Will that guides her decisions and keeps her from error. The only reason she doesnt because the Holy Spirit has awared her to the fact that the practice she has in place now is for the best, when pertinent to priests reared in the Western Church. As I've highlighted the Orientals have their own tradition and converted Anglican clerics after often granted permission to keep their wives.

Now I'm not saying that Roman rite priests should be married. As I said in a previous post on this thread I think, as RR pointed it out for many married men it would be unfeasible. Hence, I would suggest if the Papacy ever did decide to take the step to allow married men to return to the priesthood that they should be around 50 years of age before they're allowed to apply. After all St Hilary of Poiters was happily married and around that age when he entered Holy Orders and that seemed to go quite smoothly, what with him becoming the Church's first and, to date, only married Doctor of the Church whilst earning the nickname 'Athanasius of the West' for his uncompromising Catholicity. My real point is that one cannot take away the right of Rome to allow that to happen and it is potentially a fatal error to reason it shouldnt happen because of the nature of the sacramental system.

I dont believe RR has done this intentionally so I wont lecture on this topic. However, I will stress that the fact that there is two different sacraments of service doesnt mean that God could not and does not will men to live out both. From the fact we have married eastern rite priests and convert western rite priests I'd say he does. To question this would be to bring into question the Church's interpretation of this issue for the past 2,000 years both East and West. Moreover, it would suggest that the embrace of both sacraments might make one automatically invalid if not both. When it comes to the sacraments the best arbiter is the Church and of all the things to argue about they are the things even Theologians like myself should leave alone. Indeed that was the tradition for a very long time hence the Church didnt finally say definitively we have 7 sacraments until the Council of Trent. Hardly anyone dared to discuss the nature of the sacraments, indeed until the 11th century nobody questioned the real prescence and when St Thomas Aquinas was handed the job of clarifying it he was greatly perturbed by it. So much so that he threw his finished work down on the altar and ran away in shame. His conclusion, the same as in his corpus Christi office: A change that only faith can percieve.

The sacraments are mystery, they are neccessary for salvation, we can say more about them and their effects. But when we get into the why's? Its better just to say its God's will and trust in the Church's tradition to interpret that will for us. The Church says the existence of both sacraments is not contrary nor does it prohibit priests from taking wives. As far as I'm concerned thats all we need to know. Lets just wonder at the fact that God allows us to have the Holy Spirit dwell inside of our souls in this direct and personal way. This might seem contradictory to what I said about vocation but its not, since for some people its equally plausible that their character means they can only get the big pictures as both a married man as a priest. I'd simply trust God's providence to lead them to the Eastern Catholic Churches or from another denomination to Catholicism, although equally through watching EWTN's 'the journey home' I've seen many ex-Anglican priests who have found their vocation as Catholic laity and I dont doubt thats providential too. My only objection RR is that we should not try to pre-empt God's thoughts, He himself says 'My thoughts are not your thoughts'. There are 7 sacraments, why *shrugs* I dont know but I know there are 7 and that he intended 7 and some people i.e. monks and nuns might only ever recieve 5, no reason why a Benedictine has to be a priest etc. St Benedict himself was technically a lay monk. But there are 7 sacraments the reason for which is known only to God and we should leave it there.

Thats my two pennies anyhow

PS) Men wishing to be sisters? For the reasons above and also because its a disordered desire there's no way you can equate that with having married priests, which you have in your own parish. God alone knows why certain people are called to certain vocations and He calls them as He wills. But He has made clear through the Church that He does not call men to be sisters. Just as he has made clear that He does not call women to be priests: [i]Roma locuta est, causa finita est[/i]

[rufiokicks]

I agree with RemnantRules, priests are better off not being married. You can't devote your life to the priesthood and a family. The vocation of priesthood is taken by choice, which means you are choosing a vow of celibacy. I think the media deserves some of the blame. We're brought up to think sex is casual but an essential part of every life. The media teaches us that it's something everyone must have. Of course some of the priests are turning to molestation. It's terrible, don't get me wrong. But to these guys it's an easy way out. It's a lot easier to rape a child than it is to find a woman (or man for that matter) to deny your vow of celibacy. Children aren't aware of the vow, they don't know any better, they don't fight back. We need to spread the message that sex is a beautiful, amazing, God-given gift, but you really can live without it.

[Guest]

i dont see how a "MAN" could go from needing sex and not finding a woman, to takeing this need and acting it out on a innocent child.......i dunno how anyone could do this, let alone a priest.....that is so sick......remember Jesus said anyone that harms one of these little ones, is better off drowning to the bottom of the sea............... how could a priest do these things....

[rufiokicks]

I agree, it's disgusting. But it's not just clergy...

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='rufiokicks' date='Feb 24 2005, 03:00 PM'] I agree with RemnantRules, priests are better off not being married. You can't devote your life to the priesthood and a family. The vocation of priesthood is taken by choice, which means you are choosing a vow of celibacy. I think the media deserves some of the blame. We're brought up to think sex is casual but an essential part of every life. The media teaches us that it's something everyone must have. Of course some of the priests are turning to molestation. It's terrible, don't get me wrong. But to these guys it's an easy way out. It's a lot easier to rape a child than it is to find a woman (or man for that matter) to deny your vow of celibacy. Children aren't aware of the vow, they don't know any better, they don't fight back. We need to spread the message that sex is a beautiful, amazing, God-given gift, but you really can live without it. [/quote]
I agree that sex can be sacrificed with the proper discipline. But at the same time, our bodies and minds are hard wired for sex. Some more than others. The very essence of being a man (testosterone) is linked with sexual desire. For boxers, they are told to abstain from sex while training, because come fight time. The will be in a frenzy. If an indivual cannot deal with the repression of their sexual tendecies, than I feel the likelyhood for deviant sexual behavior to occur is increased. Maybe for a virgin saying goodbye to sex is not difficult. But to someone who has had it before, it may prove far more difficult to let go.

[rufiokicks]

Exactly. That's why I'm so worried about our society. People are having sex earlier and earlier and out of wedlock. If children would be brought up with a more modest, conservative idea of sex then this wouldn't be such a big problem. The media though portrays sex as just another part of life. Everyone's doing it. We encourage the human desire and when a guy has sex outside of marriage it's much more accepted. "It's a guy thing."

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Feb 24 2005, 03:06 PM'] i dont see how a "MAN" could go from needing sex and not finding a woman, to takeing this need and acting it out on a innocent child.......i dunno how anyone could do this, let alone a priest.....that is so sick......remember Jesus said anyone that harms one of these little ones, is better off drowning to the bottom of the sea............... how could a priest do these things.... [/quote]
I think its possible for them to choose kids simply for many reasons. THey are around them all the time. They are naive and more easily manipulated minds. They form a trust type bond that helps keep it secret. I dont understand it anymore than you. But the facts are pointing to either a real bad evaluation of these future priest. Or maybe something develops in the mind due to sexual tension or frustration. Not sure.

[rufiokicks]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 24 2005, 03:16 PM'] But the facts are pointing to either a real bad evaluation of these future priest. Or maybe something develops in the mind due to sexual tension or frustration. Not sure. [/quote]
It could be a combination of both really. Who knows? But I agree, they choose children over adults because it is much easier to take advantage of a naive child. It's sad but true.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 24 2005, 03:16 PM'] I think its possible for them to choose kids simply for many reasons. THey are around them all the time. They are naive and more easily manipulated minds. They form a trust type bond that helps keep it secret. I dont understand it anymore than you. But the facts are pointing to either a real bad evaluation of these future priest. Or maybe something develops in the mind due to sexual tension or frustration. Not sure. [/quote]
The problem, as I noted earlier in this thread, is that many seminaries have become refuges for homosexuals, and people with similar sexual deviations. Most of the molested boys were in their teens. Young teenage men are seen as objects of desire by homosexuals.
This is the politically incorrect truth.

The problem is the kind of men in certain seminaries who go on to become priests. It is not the fact that they are priests and take vows of celibacy.

A normal, heterosexual man does not seek teenage males for sexual release (unless no women are available, as in prison). A heterosexual priest who could not control his sexual urges would have sex with women, not molest altar boys.

[Donna]

The churchmen can indeed purge the stinking rotten fruit.

The works of Michael Rose, Roman Catholic Faithful (RCF), Father Hanley and others deserve not the empty kisses of the faithful. There do exist prelates and persons with power who boldly and cunningly give aid and comfort to pedophiles and others who persist in sexual, financial and soul theivery.

The rot is almost always preceeded by a falling away from the faith, as the Scriptures say (tho the Trad and Indult orders are not immune from terrible scandal; I cannot say how upset I was by the Trad press seemingly blacking out the crimes of Fr. Svea of Christ the King Institute, but RCF at least reported it).

If it was the SSPX exposing these things, it'd be expected that they as whistle-blowers would be vilified. But if the churchmen choose to not exorcize this evil, then eventually all whistle-blowers will, by degree, fall from approved diocesan grace. Suspensions, interdicts, excommunications...it's harder to stop laymen, but a way will be found. If it's even needed. Watch.

Perhaps the best lay recourse is to stop funding the corrupt chancery/parish/college/seminary.

But God is God and has situated the faithful thus, for His own reasons.

We are STILL responsible for the salvation of our souls.

[color=red]*[/color]If the faithful opt for spiritual/sacramental starvation because "we must go along with a,b and c"-

[color=red]*[/color]And if the faithful Palm Sunday the brave Father Hanley's - just the kind of saints we clamor for - one week and hand them over to the Sanhedrin and Pilate the next because of a known corrupt superior's indictment, it is the faithful's own fault.

Such faithful can accordingly expect God to withhold light and recourse from them, because such do not receive the love of the truth. God's visitation comes when it will and if we reject it, we set our souls up to be seduced, deceived, raped, and worse.

[color=green][i]"Don't listen to what is said, listen to what is done, for by their fruits you shall know them."[/i][/color]

Edited February 25, 2005 by Donna

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I agree that sex can be sacrificed with the proper discipline. But at the same time, our bodies and minds are hard wired for sex. Some more than others. The very essence of being a man (testosterone) is linked with sexual desire. For boxers, they are told to abstain from sex while training, because come fight time. The will be in a frenzy. If an indivual cannot deal with the repression of their sexual tendecies, than I feel the likelyhood for deviant sexual behavior to occur is increased. Maybe for a virgin saying goodbye to sex is not difficult. But to someone who has had it before, it may prove far more difficult to let go.[/quote]

Perhaps, but look at St Augustine. He was a womaniser and took part in the Manichean dualistic immoral exercise of the pro-creative function for much of his life. All Christians are called to some sort of Chastity and if we have a thorn in our sides God will help us. I talk here from experience. I am a revert of two years and approaching 19 years old I am in a University and a country where sex is all around. Where I came from in inner city South London I knew of girls aged 12 who had fallen pregnant. Sex was all that people went on about. Indeed, statistically as an afro-carribean young man I should be dancing along to the debaucherer's beat. Until two years ago I was well on course...

God though changed me as He changed St Augustine. I firmly agree with St Augustine that all desires for goods are a symptom of a desire for the highest good: God. Men get a taste of pleasure and they want more cos they cant take transiency and rightfully so God didnt design them for transient goods but to seek Him, know Him and love Him. If you're designed to love a being who is infinate of course temporary pleasures wont satisfy your appetite and just leave you hungry for more of the same. Its logical. When I met God, really, my life was completely changed and understanding the Catholic religion has blown me away. This God of ours who needs nothing, came down to earth to take on our nature which to Him is effectively nothing, and even after resurrecting Himself makes his body and blood take the form of bread and wine that are even lesser nothings all so that we can feel His love inside our souls. Even better yet when we sin He gives us grace through confession to be healed. All we have to do is go to Him and He draws us to Himself and I will keep emphasising this point.

We live under grace not under law. If we lived under law with God far from us we could never keep the commandments but because God's love is immanent and so intense its magnetic it draws us to obey. When a man really loves his wife he can even kill for that woman or die for that woman. Likewise if we simply open our hearts and allow our eyes to see and our ears to hear, if we contemplate the mysteries of faith, God will ignite us to love so that no matter what temptations are thrown at us we wont want to turn from His beautiful face. God lives in us and us in He, all we need to do to keep the commandments and abide in Him is take the time to follow the mystics in meditating upon what this means and He will draw us to Himself with relatively no effort on our part. What earthly pleasures could possibly compare to the joy of knowing--not always feeling but knowing--God personally in the sacraments. Knowing that being itself loves non-being enough to take on the inanimate form of non-being. The Blessed Sacrament is...the stone the builders rejected has become the capstone. This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.

His burden is easy and His yolk is light...

The problem is the people running the seminaries and the many of the candidates dont even understand this, were never taught it, and look like they dont even want to hear it. I sometimes wonder to myself if the Church at large even exists outside of the Vatican? Is there one country that can say with certainty that it is united fully to the magisterial teaching and cuts no corners in preaching the truth of God's love, which overcomes the temptations of the prince of this world effortlessly with the simple words 'This is my body' ?? I mean the very fact we're having a year of the Eucharist is because in so many places people have forgotten what it means. Often encouraged by dissident clerics who are pushing their own agenda upon the Church under the pretense of it being in 'the spirit of Vatican II'.

Ultimately 'this worlds crises are crises of saints' as St Josemaria Escriva said. You know if we want to make the New Evangelisation work we have to look to the past and remember that every Church renewal in history was begun by mystics, men and women of deep prayer. Take for example the crisis in the Church in the early mediaeval period. All of a sudden thanks to two men of deep prayer: Sts Francis of Assisi and Dominic of Guzman the Church was revived. Then there was a St Clare, then a St Thomas Aquinas, a St Bonaventure etc.etc. The family of friars grew and grew and with their radical spirituality they changed the world. Likewise at the Reformation first there was a St Teresa of Avila who met a St John of the Cross and elsewhere a St Ignatius Loyola who met St Francis Xaiver etc. Mystics made the Church strong and if our seminaries are not houses of mysticism we can expect the Church to be weak. Indeed, if our domestic churches are not houses of mysticism we can expect the Church to be weak. Because without grace there is no way a man can overcome temptation. "A saint without prayer...I dont believe in such a thing" St Josemaria says elsewhere in [i]'The Way'[/i].

The problem with the Church at the moment is that the desire for God's love is lacking in too many peoples hearts and its upto to those who possess that love to remind them of the neccessity to be completley engulfed in God's love. We need to be souls on fire for our friends, for our family, for our priests. Remember that St Philip Neri was only a layman when he started the oratory and would never have become a priest if not for the fact his spiritual director told him to. His ambitions were simply to love God and share God's love and for that he earned a reputation as a recruiter for the priesthood long before he founded the Oratory. The seminaries must change but they can only change if we ourselves change because if we change then the people entering the seminaries will change.

Prayer, prayer, prayer. Our only weapon against corruption is prayer. In the reformation it was the souls who cried out against abuses who ended up further ravaging the Church whilst those who devoted their time to personal reform ended up reviving a Church on the edge of disaster. If we talk more to God about others and less to others about God, we can turn this crazy situation around.

I leave you with a short extract from one of the many biographies of St Francis of Assisi:

[quote]Soon Francis started to preach. (He was never a priest, though he was later ordained a deacon under his protest.) Francis was not a reformer; he preached about returning to God and obedience to the Church. Francis must have known about the decay in the Church, but he always showed the Church and its people his utmost respect. When someone told him of a priest living openly with a woman and asked him if that meant the Mass was polluted, Francis went to the priest, knelt before him, and kissed his hands -- because those hands had held God. [/quote]