Bill Maher Says Christians Have Neurological

[Guest Eremite]

Burns,

The first amendment deals with an official Church institution being set up by the government. It has no bearing on the fact that America's laws and history have their foundation in Christianity.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 12:10 PM'] Burns,

The first amendment deals with an official Church institution being set up by the government. It has no bearing on the fact that America's laws and history have their foundation in Christianity. [/quote]
Eremite, the First Amendment deals with Free Exercise of religion. It does reflect that the founders certainly understood that different religions were being practiced. It's so important because we have to protect people from the government invading into their practice of religion.

[Guest Eremite]

Burns,

Here is the text of the first amendment:

[quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;[/quote]

1) Congress will not establish an institutional religion for people to follow, 2) Congress will not prohibit anyone else from establishing (or following) a religion.

The government has never established Christianity as a formal function of the state (except in the original colonies, which were explicitly Christian). Rather, it has used its Christian (and Jewish) heritage as the basis of its laws and structures. America is, at its foundation, a Christian nation, and the government exists in light of that fact. This is not to say all the laws of America are Christian, or that every government official looks to the Bible for its decisions, but rather that the structure of America has a Christian foundation. Unfortunately, the modern American government is slowly apostasizing from that foundation. But that is a separate question altogether.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 01:45 PM'] Burns,

Here is the text of the first amendment:



1) Congress will not establish an institutional religion for people to follow, 2) Congress will not prohibit anyone else from establishing (or following) a religion. [/quote]
Thanks for quoting that, but I already knew it. Point one prevents the government from pushing religion onto people. Point two prevent the government from interfering in the proper proceedures of people's religions. The fact that they were included in the Bill of Rights shows that the founders knew that different religions were being practiced and that should be respected.

[quote]The government has never established Christianity as a formal function of the state (except in the original colonies, which were explicitly Christian).  Rather, it has used its Christian (and Jewish) heritage as the basis of its laws and structures. America is, at its foundation, a Christian nation, and the government exists in light of that fact. This is not to say all the laws of America are Christian, or that every government official looks to the Bible for its decisions, but rather that the structure of America has a Christian foundation. Unfortunately, the modern American government is slowly apostasizing from that foundation. But that is a separate question altogether.[/quote]

The government hasn't done so because it can't, by it's own laws. The government's heritage is mixed of more than christian and jewish religion. Especially deist beliefs were included, which ARE separate from christian. America is not a christian nation, however hard you wish it were so. The government exists because a group of wealthy white landowners of a myriad of religious and political beliefs decided to draft a constitution. Not because a group of christians decided to get together and make a country. Your argument isn't very sound, because you are arguing in circles. 'America is, at its foundation, a christian nation because it has a christian foundation.' Modern American government is based (mostly) on the constitution that was drafted by the founders -- which allows for a nation such as ours. It's hard to say that they wanted us to be christian when they gave us so much freedom not to be.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Thanks for quoting that, but I already knew it.[/quote]

I wasn't suggesting you didn't. I just wanted to get the actual text out there, so we were'nt assuming what it actually said.

[quote]Point one prevents the government from pushing religion onto people. [/quote]

No it does not. It simply says Congress will not make a LAW regarding the establishment of a state religion. It doesn't say the government can't encourage religion (so long as its not made a law).

[quote]The fact that they were included in the Bill of Rights shows that the founders knew that different religions were being practiced and that should be respected.[/quote]

I agree. That still has nothing to do with the foundation of America, which was based on God-given rights, rather those given by man (see the Declaration of Independence).

[quote]America is not a christian nation, however hard you wish it were so.[/quote]

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether America were a historically Christian nation or not. I'm still going to advance my vision of where things need to go, whether America is Christian or Pagan. I acknowledge it, however, because it is historicall true.

[quote]It's hard to say that they wanted us to be christian when they gave us so much freedom not to be.[/quote]

I didn't say America "wanted us to be Christian". I said the historical foundation of America is in Judeo-Christian principles. Most American presidents operated under the influence of their Christian faith. There is a reason the Supreme Court in Washingtom has a statue of Moses bearing the 10 commandments; because they are the foundation of American principles. By the word "foundation", I do not mean they are laws in themselves, but they are the historical FOUNDATION for how America has operated in its laws and structures.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Feb 24 2005, 01:56 PM'] Thanks for quoting that, but I already knew it. Point one prevents the government from pushing religion onto people. Point two prevent the government from interfering in the proper proceedures of people's religions. The fact that they were included in the Bill of Rights shows that the founders knew that different religions were being practiced and that should be respected.



The government hasn't done so because it can't, by it's own laws. The government's heritage is mixed of more than christian and jewish religion. Especially deist beliefs were included, which ARE separate from christian. America is not a christian nation, however hard you wish it were so. The government exists because a group of wealthy white landowners of a myriad of religious and political beliefs decided to draft a constitution. Not because a group of christians decided to get together and make a country. Your argument isn't very sound, because you are arguing in circles. 'America is, at its foundation, a christian nation because it has a christian foundation.' Modern American government is based (mostly) on the constitution that was drafted by the founders -- which allows for a nation such as ours. It's hard to say that they wanted us to be christian when they gave us so much freedom not to be. [/quote]
Well said.

In a nutshell christians want to say this country was founded under their religion so they can justify trying to impose religion upon the wrest of america. I would just like to say that IF america was founded under this religion , than it sure had alot of shortcommings. Racisim and Slavery, Womens sufferage, the genocide of the native americans to name a few.

[Guest Eremite]

Melchisidec,

As I told burns, it doesn't matter one whit to me whether America is historically Christian or not. There are Protestants who defend this truth to the death, because America is the summit of the Protestant civil vision. That America is apostosizing means they are losing the only Christendom they've ever known, much like Catholicism lost its Christendom with the advent of the Protestant revolution. Catholics came to America as outsiders, and remain in America as outsiders (to an extent). America is no Catholic nation, that's for sure, and never has been.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Eremite

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 02:21 PM'] Melchisidec,

As I told burns, it doesn't matter one whit to me whether America is historically Christian or not. There are Protestants who defend this truth to the death, because America is the summit of the Protestant civil vision. That America is apostosizing means they are losing the only Christendom they've ever known, much like Catholicism lost its Christendom with the advent of the Protestant revolution. Catholics came to America as outsiders, and remain in America as outsiders (to an extent). America is no Catholic nation, that's for sure, and never has been. [/quote]
We need to get this straight. The 'pilgrims' who originally came to America were puritans. The colonies that they founded were religious. The colonies founded by the various European countries were religious -- protestant for the UK and catholic for Spain, etc. The United States, when it was founded, was not religious in nature. The founders thereof specifically added provisions to prevent it from being so (see 1st Amendment, Bill of Rights, Constitution of the United States). The citizens of the United States were of various religions, mostly christian, as they are today. None of this makes the US a christian nation. You say that you don't care whether it is or not, but you keep arguing that it is -- without proof, I might add. So, please, do explain how it is that you are so concerned with the christian foundation of the US without caring about whether or not it's true.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 02:16 PM'] No it does not. It simply says Congress will not make a LAW regarding the establishment of a state religion. It doesn't say the government can't encourage religion (so long as its not made a law).
[/quote]
Please explain this concept to me. How can the government encourage religion without making it law.

[quote]I agree. That still has nothing to do with the foundation of America, which was based on God-given rights, rather those given by man (see the Declaration of Independence).[/quote]

*clears throat* "Creator" bestowed rights, not god given.



[quote]Honestly, I couldn't care less whether America were a historically Christian nation or not. I'm still going to advance my vision of where things need to go, whether America is Christian or Pagan. I acknowledge it, however, because it is historicall true.[/quote]

As do those of like mind with you. Which is how people like me are persecuted.

[quote]I didn't say America "wanted us to be Christian". I said the historical foundation of America is in Judeo-Christian principles. Most American presidents operated under the influence of their Christian faith. There is a reason the Supreme Court in Washingtom has a statue of Moses bearing the 10 commandments; because they are the foundation of American principles. By the word "foundation", I do not mean they are laws in themselves, but they are the historical FOUNDATION for how America has operated in its laws and structures.[/quote]

If you look far enough back, christian principles are based on other, pre-existing principles. In that sense, all common law is based on such things. However, new laws must be based on something else.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Please explain this concept to me. How can the government encourage religion without making it law.[/quote]

Faith-based initiatives. (See Bush [comma] George)

[quote]*clears throat* "Creator" bestowed rights, not god given.[/quote]

*Clears throat*:

[quote]When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.[/quote]

[quote]As do those of like mind with you. Which is how people like me are persecuted.[/quote]

This is too loaded a comment to even respond to.

[quote]If you look far enough back, christian principles are based on other, pre-existing principles. In that sense, all common law is based on such things. However, new laws must be based on something else.[/quote]

Right, Jewish. Hence the phrase "Judeo-Christian", and hence the statue of Moses, whence came the decalogue.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Eremite

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]So, please, do explain how it is that you are so concerned with the christian foundation of the US without caring about whether or not it's true.[/quote]

I care about the historical and social fact, because I believe in truth, not because I believe in America.

[quote]The United States, when it was founded, was not religious in nature. The founders thereof specifically added provisions to prevent it from being so[/quote]

I stand by what I said. The leaders of this nation, up to the present one, have operated with the Christian foundation of America in mind. This is the summit of the Protestant vision, which is not based on a particular institution, but rather on the individual reliance on the guidance of Scripture. As I said before, America is not a "Christian" nation in the sense that its government aligns itself with a Christian institution, but rather, it is a Christian nation in the sense that it has historically operated under Judeo-Christian principles. Andrew Jackson, for example, asserted that the Bible is "the rock upon which our republic rests". Not as a legal document, but as a foundation.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Eremite

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 03:29 PM'] Faith-based initiatives. (See Bush [comma] George)
[/quote]
Ugh. Repugnant things. Try to forget they exist, mostly.

[quote]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.[/quote]

Because, you see, we were talking about rights not equality -- though later that became a right too.

[quote]This is too loaded a comment to even respond to.[/quote]

Good call. Then you don't have to worry about how christians persecute others...only how they are persecuted.

[quote]Right, Jewish. Hence the phrase "Judeo-Christian", and hence the statue of Moses, whence came the decalogue.[/quote]

Oddly enough, there were moral codes before judaism on which some of their laws were based.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Ugh. Repugnant things. Try to forget they exist, mostly.[/quote]

lol. Not much longer before the crusaders liberate Massachusetts.

[quote]Because, you see, we were talking about rights not equality -- though later that became a right too.[/quote]

The issue was with the word "God", not with anything else the Declaration was trying to say. It's a fact that it referenced the rights given by GOD, who is our creator.

[quote]Good call. Then you don't have to worry about how christians persecute others...only how they are persecuted.[/quote]

We can deal with it all you want. Just not in this thread, and not with the loaded premise you proposed. There's something called "specificity".

[quote]Oddly enough, there were moral codes before judaism on which some of their laws were based.[/quote]

It's called "natural law". Don't worry, we have it covered.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 04:29 PM'] I care about the historical and social fact, because I believe in truth, not because I believe in America.
[/quote]
Well, then you have contradicted yourself, haven't you? If you care about truth then you should care whether or not it's true.

[quote]I stand by what I said. The leaders of this nation, up to the present one, have operated with the Christian foundation of America in mind. [/quote]

Go ahead and stand by it, that doesn't make it any more true.

John Adams, James Madison, John Quincey Adams, John Tyler, Andrew Johnson were not strictly christian. Just for example.

[quote]This is the summit of the Protestant vision, which is not based on a particular institution, but rather on the individual reliance on the guidance of Scripture. As I said before, America is not a "Christian" nation in the sense that its government aligns itself with a Christian institution, but rather, it is a Christian nation in the sense that it has historically operated under Judeo-Christian principles. Andrew Jackson, for example, asserted that the Bible is "the rock upon which our republic rests". Not as a legal document, but as a foundation.[/quote]

See, you can't argue that the country is founded on christianity if it isn't. You're changing now to say that the people of the US are christian. The fact that judeo-christian principles align with the principles of many other world religions, including those existing in much of the world before being introduced to christianity, has no effect on you, does it?

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 04:54 PM'] lol. Not much longer before the crusaders liberate Massachusetts. [/quote]
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

[quote]The issue was with the word "God", not with anything else the Declaration was trying to say. It's a fact that it referenced the rights given by GOD, who is our creator.[/quote]

To [i]you[/i] "GOD" is your creator. By "GOD" you mean the christian god, which is not necessarily the creator or "nature's god" as referenced by Jefferson. And, actually, it's important to note the context. We were discussing who bestowed the unalienable rights. Clearly it's the creator and the law of nature along with nature's god that gave equality. Context is important -- you don't get to just ignore it because it doesn't fit to your view.

[quote]We can deal with it all you want. Just not in this thread, and not with the loaded premise you proposed. There's something called "specificity".[/quote]

Frankly, this whole discussion is a threadjack, but you are just unwilling to go into this because you know that I'm right. The furtherance of christian notions in law would mean persecution of non-christians. There's no way to work around that.

[quote]It's called "natural law". Don't worry, we have it covered.  [/quote]

No, natural law is a set of 'norms' that was adopted by christians and used to repress women and countless other groups. It's disgusting.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]If you care about truth then you should care whether or not it's true.[/quote]

I care whether it's true, but not for the reasons you assume. I'm not much of an American apologist.

[quote]See, you can't argue that the country is founded on christianity if it isn't. You're changing now to say that the people of the US are christian.[/quote]

You might want to pay attention to detail. I've stated MORE THAN ONCE in this thread that the character of America as a Christian nation is one of a general foundation, not a formal Christian creed or institution.

[quote]I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.[/quote]

Much like your remark up yonder, it's a joke.

[quote]By "GOD" you mean the christian god, which is not necessarily the creator or "nature's god" as referenced by Jefferson.[/quote]

Once again, all of this is irrelevant to your objection. You made a point about the wording of the declaration, and you were wrong, period. The declaration uses the word "God", not just "Creator".

[quote]Context is important -- you don't get to just ignore it because it doesn't fit to your view.[/quote]

I'll do what I darn well please.

[quote]Frankly, this whole discussion is a threadjack, but you are just unwilling to go into this because you know that I'm right. The furtherance of christian notions in law would mean persecution of non-christians. There's no way to work around that.[/quote]

If you want to discuss principles of religious liberty and the duties of the civil power, and historical instances of this principle, feel free to start a new thread (or wait until we finish this thread). I'll gladly participate.

[quote]No, natural law is a set of 'norms' that was adopted by christians and used to repress women and countless other groups. It's disgusting.[/quote]

You kiss your mother with that mouth? Serious, though, feel free to start ANOTHER thread on principles of natural law.

Not much more can be said here. I'll await any further challenges on another thread.

Or not...

Edited February 24, 2005 by Eremite

[Socrates]

[quote]No, natural law is a set of 'norms' that was adopted by christians and used to repress women and countless other groups. It's disgusting. [/quote]

Really? Before Christianity and related concepts of natural law, women were basically treated like slaves in most cultures.

Before Christian civilization, there was no concept of "human rights."

Edited February 25, 2005 by Socrates

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 24 2005, 09:16 PM']
Really?  Before Christianity and related concepts of natural law, women were basically treated like slaves in most cultures.

Before Christian civilization, there was no concept of "human rights." [/quote]
Not to further de-rail the thread but, I want to add to that. The concept of the modern hospital was brought about during 331 AD, under Constantine's rule, who at the time was a Christian. To quote the [b][i]Encyclopaedia Britannica[/i][/b]:

[i]The Christian tradition emphasized the close relationship of the sufferer to his fellow man, upon whom rested the obligation for care. Illness thus became a matter for the Christian church.[/i]


Of course hospitals (in one form or another) did exist prior too 331 AD, but not the modern concept of what we have today. This is one of the several things that Christianity has contributed to the world, unfortunately many tend to focus on the evils of certain people in the past, instead of the good.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 05:55 PM'] You might want to pay attention to detail. I've stated MORE THAN ONCE in this thread that the character of America as a Christian nation is one of a general foundation, not a formal Christian creed or institution.
[/quote]
Okay, then we're having a rather pointless discussion, aren't we? You and I are using the word "foundation" in semantically different ways.

[quote]
Much like your remark up yonder, it's a joke.[/quote]

*wiff* Perhaps it's some sort of in-joke. *shrug*

[quote]Once again, all of this is irrelevant to your objection. You made a point about the wording of the declaration, and you were wrong, period. The declaration uses the word "God", not just "Creator".[/quote]

Actually, no, it's not irrelevant. I was arguing over who bestowed the rights and you seem to have missed that. Whether or not the word "god" was used was beyond the scope of my point.

[quote]I'll do what I darn well please.  [/quote]

Now that's a joke that I get

[quote]If you want to discuss principles of religious liberty and the duties of the civil power, and historical instances of this principle, feel free to start a new thread (or wait until we finish this thread). I'll gladly participate.

You kiss your mother with that mouth? Serious, though, feel free to start ANOTHER thread on principles of natural law.[/quote]

Duly noted. Whether or not I'm sticking around is still up in the air, but feel free to start a thread and I'll play for as long as I'm here.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 24 2005, 08:16 PM']
Really? Before Christianity and related concepts of natural law, women were basically treated like slaves in most cultures.

Before Christian civilization, there was no concept of "human rights." [/quote]
Slaves to chattel. What a promotion.