AngelofJesus Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 After reading about predestination (light reading), who would you say would be an example of it? My first inclination is Abraham. What do you think?
AngelofJesus Posted March 6, 2005 Author Posted March 6, 2005 An example of who was predestined in the bible. My understanding of predestination, which is very superficial I am sure, is that some are predestined to go to heaven. And that God, without interfering with their free will, gives them grace to always find their way back to Him. The first person I thought of in the bible is Abraham, but I am not sure what part of his life signifies that he was predestined. Just by the fact that he was going to be father of great nations, show that God in his infinite knowledge, knew how to give Abraham enough graces to live as a man of God.
cmotherofpirl Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 That is not Catholic. We have God-given free will to determine our choices.
Robbi Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 Theres one "example" that Protestants use and one that still boggles my brain (due to lack of understanding perhaps) - Pharoah in Exodus. God hardened his heart so he would not let Israel go, so that Pharaoh would bring destruction upon Egypt and himself.
cmotherofpirl Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 Remember God is outside of time, and all things are present at all times to Him. So God knew Pharoah was going to refuse.
Honour Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 6 2005, 01:03 PM'] That is not Catholic. We have God-given free will to determine our choices. [/quote] I'm not really that well versed on the subject, but I thought I'd add that most protestants that believe in predestination do also believe in free will. We just believe that the two don't interfere
phatcatholic Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 [quote name='Robbi' date='Mar 6 2005, 09:39 PM'] Theres one "example" that Protestants use and one that still boggles my brain (due to lack of understanding perhaps) - Pharoah in Exodus. God hardened his heart so he would not let Israel go, so that Pharaoh would bring destruction upon Egypt and himself. [/quote] it was the will of God that the pharoh's heart be hardened not in the sense that God made his heart hard, but that it is God's will that the pharoh be able to harden his own heart if he wishes..........and he did. God causes no man to turn away from him, and he never actively or directly damns anyone.
AngelofJesus Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 I meant this kind of predestination. [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTm"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTm[/url] Now that I have read it again. It explains how Catholic predestination is different, but there are certain persons that are predestined. Through the grace of God and through their own merit in combination, not exclusive.
phatcatholic Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 [quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Mar 12 2005, 12:46 AM'] I meant this kind of predestination. [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTm"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTm[/url] Now that I have read it again. It explains how Catholic predestination is different, but there are certain persons that are predestined. Through the grace of God and through their own merit in combination, not exclusive. [/quote] ur link didn't work when i tried it......
AngelofJesus Posted March 12, 2005 Author Posted March 12, 2005 It's in your archive. [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728[/url] Anyway, the reason I am asking this question is because I have a mormon friend who is very well entrenched and versed in his religion. One of the things he criticized about the Catholic Church is that we believe in predestination. I had to read up on it and make a distinction between calvinist and Catholic predestination. While I have a good understanding of it now, I am trying to get an example in the Bible of anyone who was predestined as I know he will ask for bible reference.
phatcatholic Posted March 13, 2005 Posted March 13, 2005 [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"][b]here[/b][/url] is the article you are referring to (your link didn't work b/c the "m" at the end has to be capitalized). there is a wealth of scirptural citations in that article that you could use to support the catholic understanding of predestination. from them we find that [i][b]all men[/b][/i] are predestined, not just particular individuals. i'm not really sure how to give a specific example. Judas is often considered "predestined" to betray Christ. likewise, Mary was "predestined" to be the mother of our Lord. of course, a proper understanding of what it means to be "predestined" is very important. i'm not sure if that helps or not. i hope it does. pax christi, phatcatholic
Paphnutius Posted March 13, 2005 Posted March 13, 2005 (edited) He was correct though that God chooses certain individuals and predestines them with a plethora of grace to act in the way He chooses. God does not give us anything we cannont handle, so it was necessary for God to bestow His grace on Abraham to do what God wanted Him to do. As for cmother, God is both transcendent of time and acts in time. The main example we have of this is Christ. That is why it is so important. It shows that God is both transcendant and personal. It is too exlcusive to say that He is only transcendent, but I see the point you were making. Catholics teaching does teach that certain individuals are predestined (we would probably say called) to perform certain tasks and that God gives them all the grace they need. This does not, however, exlcude their will to choose God or not to. That is why God chose them. He knew that they would cooperate. I suppose the answer is yes individuals are predestined (or called) for certain tasks and to heavenly glory, but they were chosen for who they were and they would respond to God in the way that was needed. It is important not to say that God alone chose the person, but rather God and the individual chose eachother and that is why they are considered predestined. Edited March 13, 2005 by Paphnutius
phatcatholic Posted March 15, 2005 Posted March 15, 2005 pap...........thank you for your input! :thumb:
AngelofJesus Posted March 15, 2005 Author Posted March 15, 2005 Yes, thank you pap and thank you phat. It really is more clearer now that I at least can reason out that Abraham, as an example, was predestined because he was bestowed graces by God that would allow him to choose God. And to paraphrase from what I read, "we don't really know who is predestined among us, so we must actively choose God and work our salvation through our own merits with God's grace."
Paphnutius Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 14 2005, 07:36 PM'] pap...........thank you for your input! :thumb: [/quote] Np, as Newton said, "I am standing on the heads of giants." I was only building on what was already said.
phatcatholic Posted March 16, 2005 Posted March 16, 2005 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 15 2005, 08:59 PM'] Np, as Newton said, "I am standing on the heads of giants." I was only building on what was already said. [/quote] i like what Paul says: [b]Eph 2:19-20[/b] [b]19 [/b]So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [b]20 [/b][i][b]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets[/b][/i], Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone
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