Mary and Catholicism, protestant question

[Melchisedec]

My protestant asked me a couple of questions about Catholicism and I'd thought to ask here. According to baptist, jesus stated that he is the only way to god. If jesus is the only way to god, than why does Catholicism put emphasis on the virgin mary? Why the votives and constant symbols of mary? Whats the importance of mary? This tends to be something that many protestants do not understand. My mother in law told me that catholics worship mary, is that true at all?

Edited March 7, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Guest Eremite]

We put a lot of emphasis on Mary for the same reason we put a lot of emphasis on Sacred Scripture.

The Bible is not God. However, it is a gift from God that leads us TO God. We love to read the Bible, to extol the beauty of its verses, to quote it, to tell other people to read it, and so on.

In the same way, Mary is not God. However, she is a gift from God that leads us TO God. We love to honor Mary, to extol the beauty of her virtues, to embrace her as our mother who presents us to her Divine son, to tell other people about this great gift, and so on.

We do not worship Mary any more than we worship the Bible. However, they are both important elements to the Christian life, and have a very prominent place. Protestants CONSTANTLY talk about the Bible, even though it isn't God. Why? Because the Bible is intimately bound up with how God chooses to draw us closer to himself. The same is true of Mary. God has honored her as our mother, our queen, and has intimately bound her with our life in Christ; she leads us to God.

Edited March 7, 2005 by Eremite

[Fides_et_Ratio]

To give honor to Mary is to glorify God (as it is with the rest of the Saints)... to praise the masterpiece is to praise the Creator.

To have others particpate in the ministry of Christ does not take away from Christ's perfect ministry, but rather glorifies it. Thus, with Mary in a special way, and also with the Saints participating in Christ's ministry by intercession (as Protestants regularly do... asking other people to pray for you IS mediation), Christ's ministry is glorified.

What is the importance of Mary? She is the Mother of God--Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity who gave His life that we would be cleansed of our sins, she is the woman who God graced in a particular and special way to become the pinnacle of creation (Jesus was not created...)-- God created Mary "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) and saved her in a special way in light of her vocation as Mother of God.


I have more to add, but I have a meeting in a bit, I shall return afterwards to finish up and add more specifics.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 7 2005, 10:04 AM'] We do not worship Mary [/quote]
Actually, we do worship Mary.

The term "worship" has only recently become exclusive. Worship is a generic term for "devotion". We worship God in adoration (latria), and worship Mary and the Saints in veneration (dulia). The difference, as St. Thomas Aquinas explained is the difference between adoring that which is uncreated (God), and venerating the creation (Mary, Saints) of the Uncreated. We give honors/awards for academics, sports, etc.. why? To honor the greatness we say the person has demonstrated-- it's sort of the same with Mary and the Saints. To honor Mary and the Saints is to give glory to God.



Again, I'll add more later... I'm gonna be late!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 7 2005, 08:11 AM'] To give honor to Mary is to glorify God (as it is with the rest of the Saints)... to praise the masterpiece is to praise the Creator.

To have others particpate in the ministry of Christ does not take away from Christ's perfect ministry, but rather glorifies it. Thus, with Mary in a special way, and also with the Saints participating in Christ's ministry by intercession (as Protestants regularly do... asking other people to pray for you IS mediation), Christ's ministry is glorified.

What is the importance of Mary? She is the Mother of God--Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity who gave His life that we would be cleansed of our sins, she is the woman who God graced in a particular and special way to become the pinnacle of creation (Jesus was not created...)-- God created Mary "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) and saved her in a special way in light of her vocation as Mother of God.[/quote]
Well said.

[Melchisedec]

So by honoring mary, it is only for the purpose of honoring god? Redemption lies within christ,and mary and the saints are for exaltation?

[thessalonian]

I think an important part of the reason for Mary and the saints that we ofen don't think about is the example they provide.

Heb.6
[12] so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Mary's fidelity to God "let it be done unto me according to your word" is certainly something to be imitated. Now God wants us sanctified, I am sure your friend will agree. Surely he would think it appropriate to use Mary as an example and reflect on how she accepted God's providence for her even though she knew it would be a great trial being pregnant while not yet married. And Simeon's words to her "and your heart shall also be pierced was important as well". She knew from the OT that the Messiah was to be a "man of sorrows" so being his mother would not be easy. So certainly your friend can at least see that we should reflect upon Mary's life as given to us by God's word to help God's grace work in us.


my 2 cents

[Brother Adam]

Thank you for coming here and asking what Catholics believe on the issue instead of relying on assumptions. I really mean that.

[jasJis]

Mel,
To clarify in plainer language. Mary leads us to Jesus who is the way to God. Since Jesus is God, it can be said that Mary leads us to God. To honor Mary, is to acknowledge the honor God bestowed on Mary who is human like you and I. When you consider honor or 'worship' bestowed to others by Catholics, note that the other is someone who was graced to be obedient to God's will. We basically are recognizing an act of accepting grace and pray that we may mimic that obedience to God.
A few basic Catholic prayers that keep it all in perspective: We always start and end formal prayers when we make the sign of the Cross and pray: "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen." (Nothing about Mary there!) And during the Rosary, each decade or group of prayers concludes with "Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and forever shall be, world without end. Amen." Again, nothing about Mary and clearly stating and reminding us that all the Glory and honor is God's.
[i]Special[/i] devotion to Mary is an optional thing for Catholics. Choosing to ignore Mary or deny the honor due to her [u]is not an option[/u] to Catholics.

[God Conquers]

Mary always points to Jesus, and we can only get to God through Him.

[argent_paladin]

What's the importance of Mary? Why don't we ask her...

[quote]From now on all generations will call me blessed,
      for the Mighty One has done great things for me–
      holy is his name. 50[/quote]

So, I don't worship her, but I call her blessed. And I'm not the only one who thinks so highly of her. So does the Archangel Gabriel:


[quote]Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.[/quote]

And the Lord *was* with her, in her womb, being nourished from her body, the Eternal Word was receiving sustinence from her own blood. The Anointed One, the Logos, the Son of the Living God was living inside her womb, protected and supported by her flesh.

And who else honored Mary? How about Christ, her son, who followed all the commandments and woudl have honored his father and mother. If Jesus honored Mary, and so did Gabriel, shouldn't we?

[cmotherofpirl]

Baptism into the Body of Christ means I am now related to those members in heaven {Church Triumphant], those in Purgatory [Church Suffering] and those on earth {Church Militant]. We are phamily.

Those in heaven are the family heroes, the ones we look up to, emulate, and ask for intercession. We venerate [dulia] them. We pick out saints we can identify with, whose particular virtues or life appeal to us. I have a great love of St Francis.

Those in Purgatory we pray for, that their release may be soon.

Those on earth, we do our best to love and take care of [like here at phatmass]

Mary is a special case. She carried God in her womb for 9 months, so is called [i]Ark of the Covanant[/i], and [i]New Eve[/i], since she was obedient. She said yes to God at all times. When Jesus was dying Jesus gave her to St John and all of us, as our mother.
So she is specially honored [hyperdulia] and loved in many ways.

Worship [ Latria in the Catholic sense] belongs to God alone.

[Benedict]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 7 2005, 09:16 AM'] Actually, we do worship Mary. [/quote]
Never ever ever start off this discussion with "Actually, we do worship Mary".

True, the Catholics know what you mean but most Protestants do not. And I know more than my fair share of Protestants that would stop at those words, copy, paste, and that would be that.

Best to start off by addressing what the questioner means and then go back and correct their English.

(And yes, I have answered this question that same way.)

[MC Just]

"My soul doth MAGNIFY the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.... For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. --Luke 1:46-49

notice "magnify" look up the definition. Mary helps us see Christ (God) in a much larger view. A sad story for those who call Mary a sinner and ignore the scriptures when they say

"For he hath looked upon the low estate of his handmaid: For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" Luke 1:48

Mary's Role in the Catholic Faith does not Contradict the Scriptures or Christ's role as the sole mediator.

I dont know what the protestants see when they read the magnify part.

Edited March 10, 2005 by MC Just

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 7 2005, 10:16 AM'] Actually, we do worship Mary.

The term "worship" has only recently become exclusive. Worship is a generic term for "devotion". We worship God in adoration (latria), and worship Mary and the Saints in veneration (dulia). The difference, as St. Thomas Aquinas explained is the difference between adoring that which is uncreated (God), and venerating the creation (Mary, Saints) of the Uncreated. We give honors/awards for academics, sports, etc.. why? To honor the greatness we say the person has demonstrated-- it's sort of the same with Mary and the Saints. To honor Mary and the Saints is to give glory to God.



Again, I'll add more later... I'm gonna be late! [/quote]
Actually there is a distinction here. Mary recieves hyper-dulia, and the saints dulia. A better and perhaps more appropriate term is venerate than worship. Yes by definition worship works, but it depends on whether you let the world's defintions define how you approach the Lord. Keep in mind that Mary is often considered higher than the angels.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Mar 8 2005, 07:06 PM'] Never ever ever start off this discussion with "Actually, we do worship Mary".

True, the Catholics know what you mean but most Protestants do not. And I know more than my fair share of Protestants that would stop at those words, copy, paste, and that would be that.

Best to start off by addressing what the questioner means and then go back and correct their English.

(And yes, I have answered this question that same way.) [/quote]
But I was addressing a claim to the opposite. Besides, if you don't say it, many Protestants will go dig up quotes from various saints and popes that specificially promote "worship of Mary" verbatim. Best to be honest in the beginning, and correct english and vocabulary understanding.

But I do see your point. I usually don't flat out say that to Protestants... I usually say that to well meaning Catholics. With Protestants, I usually explain the term worship, and then the distinctions.


[quote name='Paphnutius']Actually there is a distinction here. Mary recieves hyper-dulia, and the saints dulia.[/quote]
Yes, I am aware of that distinction as well-- I never did come back and finish my thoughts in this thread (oops!)... I was in a rush, and forgot to distinguish hyper-dulia and dulia.. and if you really wanted to get specific, we could include proto-dulia. lol.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 10 2005, 08:41 PM']
Yes, I am aware of that distinction as well-- I never did come back and finish my thoughts in this thread (oops!)... I was in a rush, and forgot to distinguish hyper-dulia and dulia.. and if you really wanted to get specific, we could include proto-dulia. lol. [/quote]
Quick question for you. It is to my understanding that proto-dulia is still just a suggestion for Joeseph and still has not been proclaimed as "official" i guess. Any clarification?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Hmm, interesting. I hadn't heard that proto-dulia was not official... where did you hear that?

It makes a lot of sense if you think about it... After Mary, Joseph was the closest human being to Jesus-- he was Jesus' "adoptive father", in a sense. It would seem also to be a somewhat natural effect of the 4th Commandment... and elevate the Holy Family to a more appropriate level.

[Paphnutius]

I have just heard it on other sites and i think the Catholic Dictionary of Theology makes that distinction. Like I said I was not sure if it was official or not and that is why I asked. I agree with you on the reasons why, but from all that I have read some theologians are still advocating for that term.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I guess I'll have to check on that a bit more...