Diety of Mary?

[goldenchild17]

[url="http://www.shoal.net.au/~mwoa/documents/deity_of_mary.html"]http://www.shoal.net.au/~mwoa/documents/deity_of_mary.html[/url]

[Ziggamafu]

I've actually thought about this for a long time, now. If we are called to participate in the Trinity, sharing the Divine Life "as gods" by virtue of what Christ has done for us, then as with everything else, Mary would have a unique sharing in all of that. I see no problem with it, and even see it being pronounced as the 7th Marian dogma someday. Of course, it will serve to further alienate Protestants and probably make them confuse our doctrine on the matter with that of Mormons.

[Apotheoun]

Yes, Mary has been divinized by her participation in the uncreated energies of God, and so she has become truly divine.

The deification of man is the whole point of the incarnation of God, for as St. Athanasius said, "God was made man that we might be made God." [St. Athanasius, [u]De Incarnatione Dei Verbi[/u], 54:3] Moreover, in reference to God's uncreated energies St. Gregory Palamas -- quoting St. Maximus -- said that, ". . . this deifying power [i.e., the divine energy] is not only [i]enhypostasized[/i] [personalized], but also uncreated; that it is not only uncreated, but also beyond the limits of space and time; and that those who possess it become thereby uncreated and beyond the limits of space and time, although in their own proper nature they are still creatures who have come from non-being." [St. Gregory Palamas, [u]The Triads[/u], III, 1, 31] In other words, by the gift of God's deifying grace ([i]energia[/i]) man truly participates in God's own life and glory;and this is true in an exemplary way of the Holy Theotokos, because she has been assumed body and soul into heavenly glory, and so she is the eschatological fulfillment of what the whole Church will be at the Parousia of the Lord.

Here are some patristical quotations on the doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] (divinization):

[url="http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis2"]Select Patristical Quotations on the Doctrine of Theosis[/url]

Here are some brief essays I wrote on [i]theosis[/i]:

[url="http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun/theosis"]The Doctrine of Theosis[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Mar 8 2005, 01:16 AM'] [url="http://www.shoal.net.au/~mwoa/documents/deity_of_mary.html"]http://www.shoal.net.au/~mwoa/documents/deity_of_mary.html[/url] [/quote]
As far as the "private revelations" of the Little Pebble are concerned, I would not trust any of them, because they have been condemned by the ecclesiastical authorities in Australia.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

As far as the doctrine of theosis (divinization) is concerned, Pope John Paul II said the following:

[quote name='Pope John Paul II' date=' Incarnation Inspires Christian Genius, no. 5']Faith in Christ, the Incarnate Word, leads us to see man in a new light. In a certain sense, it enables us to believe in man, created in the image and likeness of God, at once a microcosm of the world and an icon of God. An anthropological vision of such breadth represents a leaven of unparalleled spiritual energy for overcoming the limitations of every culture by magnifying its creative potential. If one thinks of the hesitation and uncertainties typical of our time, all this is presented as a factor of authentic metamorphosis. In fact, from contemporary crises comes a call to create "a new humanism" (ibid., n. 55), which restores to man his full human dimension, helping him at the same time to become aware of his extraordinary divine vocation. The Fathers of the Church repeated this constantly: "God became man so that man might become God" (St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation of the Word, 54, 3; PG 25, 192). In search of freedom and truth, of love and beauty, man finds in contemplating the Word of Life, the Son of God and Son of Mary, "reasons for life and optimism" (Gaudium et spes, n. 31). Here is the inexhaustible source of culture, which makes man "more a man" (ibid., n. 41).[/quote]

[phatcatholic]

apotheoun............thanks for the awesome quotations from the ECF's

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 8 2005, 11:48 PM'] apotheoun............thanks for the awesome quotations from the ECF's [/quote]
I think the patristical quotations I provided on my website are already in your reference section, and that the Phatmass reference section also includes scriptural quotations (both that I supplied and that you supplied) and quotations from the [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u] on the doctrine of man's divinization by grace. In addition, I believe that the reference section has links to other websites on the doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] that you yourself found and posted there.

[phatcatholic]

oh, i know just commending you for providing such a valuable resource

[goldenchild17]

Okay, so the ECF's and the Catechism have this idea of deification. Where is it in Scripture?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Mar 9 2005, 04:34 PM'] Okay, so the ECF's and the Catechism have this idea of deification. Where is it in Scripture? [/quote]
2Peter 1:4

"Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature."

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Mar 9 2005, 04:34 PM'] Okay, so the ECF's and the Catechism have this idea of deification. Where is it in Scripture? [/quote]
agh! u didn't even bother to look!! its all good, i gotcha

--[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=15222"][b]Doctrine of Theosis[/b][/url]

make sure you read thru the whole thread

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

Thanks. I'll read through it.

[goldenchild17]

I'm gettin' eaten alive...
__________________________________________________________________

"So the Catholic Church teaches that we become "divinized", ie. we become like gods, when we die. Is this Biblical?

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. (Isaiah 43:10, emphasis mine)

"This is what the LORD says--
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come--
yes, let him foretell what will come.

Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." (Isaiah 44:6-8, emphasis mine)

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God. (Isaiah 45:5)

Clearly then, there is NONE even LIKE God, let alone gods themselves. But where will we find this belief that the Catholic Church is teaching? Less surprising to me every day, the book known as Doctrine and Covenants, one of the "scriptural" books the Mormon Church believes in:

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20 [Mormon])

What the Catholic Church is preaching, then, is very similar to the Mormon belief of becomming gods when we die. So then why do we speak against Mormonism for believing the exact same thing? For believing that we become "gods" when we die, and yet the Catholic Church appears to be teaching this as well.

As for "divine natures", I've already addressed that the word "divine" means "godlike", and also made it clear that the Bible teaches that there is NONE like God. I can understand "transfiguration", however "godlike" just doesn't cut it when it comes to the Bible.

'Shady"

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Catholics differ from the Morman belief in that we don't have our own "power"... it is through a sharing in (a "grace", if you will) God's power. Without God, the whole thing falls apart. For the Mormans, once you're a "god", you don't really need "God" anymore because you have all your own stuff.

But, I really ought to stay out of this, as I'm definitely not an expert on the matter.

[goldenchild17]

I'm just struggling with the Biblical aspect of things. I see places where we are called to be one with Christ and all that and a part of His body. But I'm struggling with the idea of becoming deity(the Scripture passages above seem to be strongly against the idea).

[Fides_et_Ratio]

How could we truly be one with Christ/God in Heaven if we were not made truly divine (i.e., truly/actually participating in the Divine Nature of God) upon our union with God?

[phatcatholic]

colin...........there is no reason for YOU to be on the defensive. put it back on them and ask them how they reconcile their belief w/ the verses that clearly show us sharing in the divine life of Christ. an abundance of scripture is provided in the thread i provided for u. responding to your verses w/ verses of their own is just verse-slinging.

Edited March 11, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Mar 10 2005, 06:10 PM'] I'm just struggling with the Biblical aspect of things.  I see places where we are called to be one with Christ and all that and a part of His body.  But I'm struggling with the idea of becoming deity(the Scripture passages above seem to be strongly against the idea). [/quote]
That is because the texts quoted from Isaiah are being misapplied. Certainly there is no other God but the Lord, but all those who are participating in His life and glory are divinized in Him. Now, they are not divinized in such a way that the are 'gods' independently of Him, rather they are deified by participating in His own uncreated energy ([i]grace[/i]). Thus, when scripture says that a man becomes a son of God in Christ [cf. John 1:9-13; Romans 8:14-30; etc.], the Catholic Church takes this statement seriously, for those who have been redeemed by the Paschal Mystery of Christ have been made sons of God in the only begotten Son of God, and so, what Christ is by nature (i.e., [i]essentially[/i]), man becomes by grace (i.e., [i]energetically[/i]). This involves a real ontological participation by man in God's own being, and those who deny this truth deny the very reality of the mystery of salvation. How can a person seriously say that there is no one "like" God, when God Himself says, "'Let Us make man in Our [i]image[/i], after Our [i]likeness[/i]; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.' So God created man in His own [i]image[/i], in the [i]image[/i] of God He created him; male and female He created them." [Genesis 1:26-27] Clearly, man is made in the likeness of God, and that likeness is not simply a figurative reality, but is instead an ontological reality. In other words, man is created with the capacity to enter into the very life and glory of the Triune God, and this participation in God is the very essence of salvation.

[Crusader_4]

lets clear up some stuff here. By this idea of divinization it does not mean we become God. On the contrary we share in Gods life in the trinity through HIS grace like how Jesus does. We become a son like Jesus and through the Fathers grace are lifted up. In other words in heaven we really reflect the image of God. It is like a mirror on Earth we cloud up the mirror and cannot reflect properly but in heaven we refelct god's image and are seen in a sense like his perfect son Jesus as our sins have been purified and we take part in the trinity. This is my understanding of it someone please correct me and let me be aware of Hetredox views in this post.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Mar 13 2005, 12:22 AM'] This is my understanding of it someone please correct me and let me be aware of Hetredox views in this post. [/quote]
sounds good to me :thumb: