The Interpretation of Scripture

[LittleLes]

Hi Archangel,

I think you will find that "Sunni Islam" is only one sect, not the total number of Muslims. Heard of the Shites"?

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

CAM says "Who cares? It really has nothing to do with this conversation."

Perhaps you overlooked the argument that was attempted that since the Ebionite movement disappeared, it couldn't have been the true faith."

But in case you did, please reread Archangel's post of 20 March. "Why didn't any of these sects survive if they supposedly contained the "truth" or the "way."?

If Catholicism eventually disappears as statistics indicate it is beginning to do, will that be proof that it didn't contain the "truth" or the "way"? That's the logical follow-on question to the one Archangel asked.

Little Les

Edited March 22, 2005 by LittleLes

[Cam42]

Brother Littleles,

I said "who cares" when talking about the Muslim population of the world. I notice that you are straying from the topic again.

I have given hard proof as to the reasoning why the Ebionites were put down. They were heretical. It has been proven. I have shown the proof. Not by my opinion, but the teachings of the EARLY Church. And notice that the Early Church was contemporary with the heretical Ebionites.

So, if you can prove that the Ebionites were not heretical (that is held to teachings contrary to the Church) then we will listen. If not, relent. Your opinion means nothing.

Cam

[LittleLes]

"They were heretical. It has been proven."

What proof are you referring to? Do you use the axiom that everything the Church teaches (at present, since it changes) is correct, and everything that does not fully agree with such teaching is "heretical"?

In the final analysis, this argument can be reduced to "...because we say so, that's why."

Or as Pope Leo XIII told us in Praeclara Gratulationis Publicael, on 20 June 1894, "We hold upon this earth the place of God almighty." Unfortunately some Catholic true believers think this is so, and believe that they do too. Scary

LittleLes

Edited March 22, 2005 by LittleLes

[jasJis]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Mar 22 2005, 06:54 AM'] Hi Archangel,

I think you will find that "Sunni Islam" is only one sect, not the total number of Muslims. Heard of the Shites"?

LittleLes [/quote]
Just as been pointed out to you, Les, Catholic is only part of who is known to be of Christianity. Ever here of Anglicans, Orthodox, or Lutherans?

Edited March 22, 2005 by jasJis

[LittleLes]

You are saying then that all Christians can be counted as Catholics?

Incidently the other Christian religions are declining relative to the total world's population as well.

LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote]You are saying then that all Christians can be counted as Catholics?[/quote]

No, we are saying all Christians can be counted as catholics.

Big difference. If you can't see it, then you are blind. Spiritually and optically. They are not members of the Catholic Church, but they share in the truth of the Catholic Church to a lesser degree. Insofar as they are separated, they cannot count themselves as Catholic, but they most certainly can count themselves as catholic, IF they are baptized using the Trinitarian formula.

Cam

[Cam42]

[quote]Do you use the axiom that everything the Church teaches (at present, since it changes) is correct, and everything that does not fully agree with such teaching is "heretical"? [/quote]

Anything that gives credence to a post-baptismal denial of a revealed truth that must be held is heretical. The Ebionites fell into that category, therefore, they are heretical.

Let me count the ways, brother Littleles.

Cam

[LittleLes]

Looks like both statements are saying that all Christians can be counted as Catholics.

Did you mistype?

LittleLes

And Catholic claims never cease to amaze me. There are four references to baptism in Acts and all are in the name of Jesus, not the Trinity. Eusebius quotes Matthew 28 in several places, but the baptism he describes too is always in Jesus' name and never includes the Trintarian formula.

References to the Trinity in the New Testament (which hadn't been invented yet)occured at two locations, 1 John 5:7 and Matthew 28. Curiously, although we have extensive notes from Nicea, it was apparently not argued there that these references existed. And, of course, 1 John has since been recognized as a later addition to the New Testament and deleted.

Somebody has renamed Matt 28 as the Constantine ending.

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

Of course, the other alternative may be true instead. The Ebionites were correct and the Pauline Church heretical. Or maybe the Gnostics were correct and both of the others were heretical?

But which ever faction is currently in power can call the others heretical.

Can you give me any claim of heresy before the second century??

LittleLes

Edited March 22, 2005 by LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote]Did you mistype?[/quote]

Nope. Meant every word.

We are saying all Christians can be counted as catholics. We are not saying that all Christians can be Catholics though.

You don't see the difference do you?

Brother Littleles, you need to study more.

[quote]There are four references to baptism in Acts and all are in the name of Jesus, not the Trinity. Eusebius quotes Matthew 28 in several places, but the baptism he describes too is always in Jesus' name and never includes the Trintarian formula.[/quote]

Here folks, is the latest attempt to stay off topic. Sorry brother, but all Christians are catholics. They just are not Catholic.

Cam

[LittleLes]

No CAM. My response is to your claim that they are Catholics if they were baptized with the Trintarian formula. See above. Did you forget so soon what you'd written?

LittleLes

Edited March 22, 2005 by LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote]My response is to your claim that they are Catholics if they were baptized with the Trintarian formula. See above. Did you forget so soon what you'd written?[/quote]

I believe I said:
[quote]Insofar as they are separated, they cannot count themselves as Catholic, but they most certainly can count themselves as catholic, IF they are baptized using the Trinitarian formula.[/quote]

You are confused. Try figuring out the difference between catholic and Catholic. Then maybe we can get somewhere.


Cam

[LittleLes]

I'm afraid that you are once again involved in a fallacy due to diction.

catholic -is an adjective meaning universal

Catholic -is a noun or adjective designating is a faith group.

If you are giving the terms new meaning to fit your argument, that is something else, but not an uncommon tactic.

Little Les

[Archangel]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Mar 22 2005, 08:26 AM'] You are saying then that all Christians can be counted as Catholics?

Incidently the other Christian religions are declining relative to the total world's population as well.

LittleLes [/quote]
Then you must be saying that all Shiites can be counted as Sunis.

[Cam42]

What school of philosophy did you attend?

[quote]I'm afraid that you are once again involved in a fallacy due to diction.[/quote]

There is no such thing. Fallacy of diction....that is rich.

Last time I checked some Protestant Churches say the Nicene Creed.

I know that you don't like hyperlinks, however:

[url="http://www.westwoodlutheran.org/downloads/luth_liturgy.html"]A Guidebook to the Lutheran Liturgy[/url]

see point 14. I will post, considering that you don't "do" hyperlinks.

[quote]Following the Sermon and the Hymn of the Day, we are able to respond once again to the proclamation of God's Word by expressing, as a community of worshipers, our commitment to God and to his teaching. In The Creed we confess the faith of the whole Christian church, and at the same time declare our personal adherence to that faith and our own dedication to the furtherance of God's plan in all the world. We stand as we speak it as a sign of our resolution and readiness to profess and defend our faith.

The word creed comes from the first phrase of the creed as it is spoken in Latin: Credo in unum Deum ... "I believe in one God."

In the very early Christian church, individual bishops or councils often established creeds for use in their own localities. Often these were framed as cautious safeguards against the infringement of "heretical.' beliefs.

But the creeds we use today to declare our fundamental beliefs focus instead upon the perpetuity, unity, and universality of the Christian faith, as it binds all Christians together, and links all who have believed in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit throughout the centuries.

The insertion of The Creed into the formal order of Sunday worship occurred quite late in the history of the liturgy. Nevertheless, the creeds which we speak today recall a rich historical tradition and share ancient origins.

[b]The Nicene Creed, so named because it was adopted by the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., has traditionally been associated with the more festive and elaborate celebrations of the church year. Its ecumenical focus emphasizes the universal faith we share in the celebration of Holy Communion.[/b]

Though parts of the Apostle's Creed existed even earlier, it did not evolve into its present form until about 750 A.D. The Apostle's Creed originated as a personal confession of faith for use at Baptism. It emphasizes the importance of personal commitment, and has therefore traditionally served also as a reaffirmation of our Baptismal covenant.[/quote]

catholic and Catholic....time to get learned.....brother Littleles....there is a difference.

Cam

Edited March 23, 2005 by Cam42

[Cam42]

[url="http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm"]The Nicene Creed[/url]

[quote]* We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Many Christians from various backgrounds will want to know, "Precisely what would I be agreeing to if I signed this?"[/quote]

Notice that this is a Protestant website. It is not meant to show that I agree with every precept, but rather to show that even Protestants understand the difference between catholic and Catholic.

This is a concept that is apparently beyond you. I will pray that you get learned brother Littleles.

Cam

[LittleLes]

Hi CAM

I don't recall citing a "Protestant website." But if I have, "I have sinned..." We all know that all Protestant writings are unreliable!

In fact, when I realized that my Encyclopedia Britiannica was edited mainly by Episcopalians, I immediately threw it out!!!

LittleLes

[Jaime]

Littles states the following

[quote]

I'm afraid that you are once again involved in a fallacy due to diction.

catholic -is an adjective meaning universal

Catholic -is a noun or adjective designating is a faith group.

If you are giving the terms new meaning to fit your argument, that is something else, but not an uncommon tactic.[/quote]

Cam responds to show that protestantsproclaim that they are members of a holy catholic (small c) apostolic church when they say speak the Nicene Creed. Thereby making the point that they understand that they are included in the (small c) catholic church.

Littleles responds with


[quote]I don't recall citing a "Protestant website." But if I have, "I have sinned..." We all know that all Protestant writings are unreliable! tongue.gif
[/quote]

Littless you cannot even admit when your wrong about something as obvious as the difference between the Catholic church and catholic church.

Why should we continue to engage you when you cannot admit to an error that doesn't even factor in to what this thread was supposed to be about?

[Cam42]

[quote]I don't recall citing a "Protestant website."[/quote]

You didn't, I did. Boy oh boy....

Even the Protestants think themselves as catholic. Just not Catholic.

Cam