The Virgin Mary

[FiZzGiG]

Well, debates online are always difficult, but I got myself into one again. Whoop. This one's about Mary's viriginity for her whole life. I'm not quite sure where to go from here... I don't know the Scriptures well enough, so I guess I'm kinda stuck.

[quote]Though that is correct about the usage of the term brother; when you look at the Epistles and the make reference to the Lord's brother or less vaguely the account when they told Jesus that you mother and brethren want to talk to you and he said who is my mother and brethren; the true context of this passage refers to his earthly family, hence his natural brothers by blood.
If you look at the Bible logically and with reason, since that's how it's written, why would Joseph be told to stay with Mary and marry her but not have sex with her after the birth of Christ?  Paul writes and tells us that is wrong for a husband and wife to withold themselves from each other and yes that does mean sexually too.  When you rightly divide the word of truth you see that it is in perfect harmony and that it doesn't contradict itself in the slightest.[/quote]

and he continues on another post (although it's so unclear you can hardly call it "continuing")...

[quote]New testament refers to disciple as the brother of the Lord.  Look at the origin of the word in that particular context.
Another example; sure.  They told Jesus that his mom and bros wanted to talk to him.  Christ said he that follows me are my mother and brothers.  Look at the origin  concerning the brethren that came to see him along with his mother.
Natural earthly brethren by blood.  Enough said.
Not convinced- We'll use logic.
Paul said that husband and wife should withold from each other.  This means sexually.  Same as defrauding.  You mean Joeseph was told to stay with Mary after the virgin birth of Christ and he didn't get any until the day he died.  C'mon now.[/quote]


Any takers?

[scardella]

A priest friend of mine told me this simple thing:
After Mary is married to the Holy Spirit (hence the whole Jesus being born thing), why would she want or need to have sex with Joseph? After all the Holy Spirit is a perfect husband.

Also, cousins were referred to as brothers. Although there is a word for cousins, it apparently wasn't in wide use.

[Paphnutius]

One quick thing, the word that is used for brother simply means relative. Many scholars think it means cousin or something along those lines. Scripture references: Jn 19:26, Mary is entrusted to John not a sibling! Other soon to follow but I have class right now.

[thessalonian]

It's not a question of not having sex with her. It is more a question of how could he? After all her womb held GOD FOR NINE MONTHS! The Jews would not speak the word God. Joseph most definitely would not have felt it would be proper to have relations with the woman who held God in her womb for 9 months.

Secondly, ask him where it says "child of mary" or any form thereof regarding anyone other than Jesus. As was stated above brother had a wide range of meaning so that is no proof. But if he had "child of Mary" then he would have something. .

Thirdly, I don't know if you want to go through it all with him but if you look allegorically at the old testament there is much you can do. For instance, I am sure you are aware of the parrellel between 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1 regarding Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. One thing about the Ark is that NOONE WOULD TOUCH IT LEST THEY DIE because it was so Holy. It was the God Bearer of the Old Covenant. Joseph likely would have had the same view of Mary, the God bearer of the New Covenant.

One last thing. If he is open to patristic evidence, ALL of the early writers who dealt with the matter except Tertullian, said that Mary was a virgin her whole life. Now this doesn't perhaps seem very significant except that this view had spread worldwide without the use of snail mail or email, by people who hardly every saw eachother, from North to south to east to west, in different cultures and languages. If one engages his mind very far, this is simply unbelievable if it were not spread far and wide by the Apostles and their immediate successors.

Hope that helps.

[Paphnutius]

I dont know if this is going to be worth the time. By his response

[quote]You mean Joeseph was told to stay with Mary after the virgin birth of Christ and he didn't get any until the day he died.  C'mon now.[/quote]

It doesnt sound like he is open to listening. His mind is in the gutter if he is using that type of language when speaking about women, especially Mary!

[FiZzGiG]

You have nooo idea.

I don't think he'll turn around and agree with me. He's stubborn and has a closed mind. But it's worth a try!

And thanks everyone!! It helps a lot!!

And if anyone wants to check out the debate or help out just lemme know.

Thanks everyone!!! God bless!

[musturde]

hahaha I remember this guy. He uses too much street language when reffering to theology.

We shalt convert him muahahahaha. (mostly u since u do all those long posts... ill just watch and nod my head)

[peach_cube]

I believe St. Jerome deals with this issue in one of his writings, it is particularly good.

[musturde]

really? I have a Church Father's book with some excerps from him. I dont think he deals with her sinning, i think it just touched on the fact that she didnt have kids. I'll check it out though. Thank you.

Peace in Christ.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Mar 21 2005, 08:33 PM'] I believe St. Jerome deals with this issue in one of his writings, it is particularly good. [/quote]
St. Jerome's [i]The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary[/i]:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm[/url]

His opponent never replied...

Edited March 22, 2005 by thedude

[FiZzGiG]

Okay, well I posted my response. If you'd like to see the argument here's the link: [url="http://forum.rachaellampa.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1536;start=25#lastPost"]http://forum.rachaellampa.com/index.php?bo...art=25#lastPost[/url]

I'm a beggining apologist so this is a learning experience. I hope my post is okay.

Thanks everyone for your input! It helped SO much!!

God bless and Mary protect!

[thessalonian]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Mar 21 2005, 09:01 PM'] Okay, well I posted my response. If you'd like to see the argument here's the link: [url="http://forum.rachaellampa.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1536;start=25#lastPost"]http://forum.rachaellampa.com/index.php?bo...art=25#lastPost[/url]

I'm a beggining apologist so this is a learning experience. I hope my post is okay.

Thanks everyone for your input! It helped SO much!!

God bless and Mary protect! [/quote]
You might want to add a bit on that parrellel between Mary and the AOC.


Both events took place in the hill country of Judah:

Luke 1
39. Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,

2 Sam 6
2. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.

Similarity of David and Elizabeth's words in greeting Mary and speaking of the Ark.
luke 1
43. "[b]And how has it happened to me[/b], that the [b]mother of my Lord[/b] would come to me?

2 Sam 6

9. So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "[b]How can the ark of the LORD come to me[/b]?"

John leaps before Mary who contains the Lord in her womb.
Luke 1
44. "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

David leaps before the ark in which the Lord resides.
2 Sam 6
16. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David[b] leaping [/b]and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Mary stays with elizabeth for 3 mo.

56. And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.

The Ark stays with obemedon for 3 mo.

11. Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Too many coincidences here for one to not draw a parrellel.

[FiZzGiG]

Okay, good point. Thank you.

Do you mind if I use your words? I'll be sure to give credit to you, of course.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Mar 21 2005, 10:45 PM'] Okay, good point. Thank you.

Do you mind if I use your words? I'll be sure to give credit to you, of course. [/quote]
Go ahead and use them. Don't worry about the credit. I learned it from others (i.e. Scott Hahn).

[Jake Huether]

It is also made obvious even in the text of the annunciation. The Angel tells Mary you **WILL** give birth... Mary says, "How can I since I do not know man"...


The Angel's statement is future tense - when in the future, at that point, Mary could not know! So, if she had intended on having regular relations with Joseph (in the future), then why would she ask, "How can this be"? Mary would have naturally assumed that the child would be Joseph's! Just like in the previous paragraph Zack new that Elizabeth would have HIS child. Since Mary didn't assume that Joseph would be the dad, it's right that we understand this to mean that Mary would NEVER have relations with Joseph.

May God give you peace in your debates.

Take care.

[phatcatholic]

JAKE!!!! YOU'RE BACK!!!!!!

omg, its over now.........

dude, welcome back, i've missed ya

[phatcatholic]

to answer this question:

[quote]why would Joseph be told to stay with Mary and marry her but not have sex with her after the birth of Christ?[/quote]

for one, so that Mary could avoid scandal. she would have been stoned were it to appear that she became pregnant out of wedlock. also, so that Jesus could benefit from having an earthly father. we can rightly assume that he learned many lessons on how to be a man from Joseph. finally, before she even became pregnant, its safe to assume that Mary entered into a betrothal w/ Joseph, despite her devotion to the Lord, b/c Joseph was a "just man" and b/c such arrangements were often necessary for the survival of women at that time.

[Paphnutius]

Just playing devil's advocate here....

Than answers why he marrired her despite her pregnancy, but not why he did not have relations with her after the birth...