What Does It Mean To Be "saved"?

[Katholikos]

Monica wrote about St. Maximillian Kolbe on Open Mic:

But, oh well, I mean even Catholics have to get SOMETHING right somewhere along the way. Here is one exception. Maybe he was even saved, although he was a Catholic and devoted to Mary.

Do you mean that a person who is (1) Catholic, and/or (2) devoted to Mary, can't be saved? Or can only be saved in certain instances? What do you mean by "saved"? Under what circumstances do you think a Catholic can be saved (if you do)?

What about Martin Luther, who was "devoted to Mary" to his dying breath. You don't think Luther, the hero of the Deformation, was "saved"? What do you think happened to him?

(Personally, I believe he's in Purgatory until the end of time )

JMJ Jay (Katholikos)

[Ellenita]

Katholikos, are you directing these questions to Monica?

A huge number of protestant denominations do not believe in infant baptism or confirmation and therefore would not consider anyone who had experienced this as an expression of their faith as being saved. I think it's a very commonly held belief among many protestants that catholics 'are not christians' and will not be 'saved' until they have come to accept protestant beliefs!

[Anna]

I am also curious about something: does "saved" mean the same thing as "justified"?

If not, what's the difference?

In the Purgatory thread, Monica seemed to think that the souls in purgatory somehow aren't saved. Yet, they are the only souls who can definitely say, without a doubt, "I am going to spend eternity in heaven."

Even someone who claims to be saved cannot say that for certain.

Cuz until we reach purgatory, we are still working out our salvation in fear and trembling!

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

THe protestant Church is about 500 years old?

THe Catholic Church is 2000 years old.

So if we are not christians, the protestants are not either.

THe truth religion did not wait around 1500 years to be discovered by a bunch of

disgruntled old men.

THou are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church!!

And he did. :)

[littleflower+JMJ]

i totally despise that whole "saved" business.

God does the saving. not us.

its like we're trying to play the CEO part when we're only the UPS guy.

who are we to make such claims?

thats God's department.

untill we're past those pearly white gates, then we will know if we are truly "saved"

and not a second before.

-_-

+JMJ

[Ellenita]

There is no concept of puratory in protestant theology. You are either 'saved', and therefore going directly to heaven when you die or you are 'not saved' and heading for the other place. It's a concept I have been battling with in terms of trying to understand it and it's quite difficult to accept if you are steeped in protestantism.

Anna, I'm not sure what you mean by justified. Being saved is about accepting that Jesus died for our sins and personally asking Him into our lives isn't it? No one is justified in their salvation - its through the grace of God.

cmotherofpirl, you know that I don't hold to the belief that Catholics are not Christians don't you?! I'm actively seeking the truth and being challenged on alot of things I've been taught in the past as a result.

[hecklingsoul]

You are either 'saved', and therefore going directly to heaven when you die or you are 'not saved' and heading for the other place.

Us too. The Catholic Church doesn't see Purgatory as a second chance. Its a cleansing process before you get to heaven. You can be saved but if you are anything less then pure then you need to be made so before entering heaven. Because nothing unpure can enter heaven. So if you find yourself in purgatory, rest assured that you will be going to heaven.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Jesus is the only one who judges who will and will not be saved. I don't like it when Protestants ask "have you been saved?" They have the misconception that just believing in Christ means you will attain salvation. A belief that is Biblically false:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Matthew 7:21

[Anna]

Being saved is about accepting that Jesus died for our sins and personally asking Him into our lives isn't it?

Catholics do accept that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins.

We also accept that He gives us His Body and Blood to eat. How's that for personally inviting Him into our lives?

"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me, and I in him." "Amen, amen, I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have eternal life."

We accept the Truth, the WHOLE Truth, and Nothing But the Truth.

How does one ask Jesus personally into their lives, but refuse to eat His Body and drink His Blood, as He commanded? What sort of acceptance is that?

Where in Scripture are we instructed to "ask Jesus into our lives" in order to be saved? Is this a doctrine made up by men?

No one is justified in their salvation - its through the grace of God.

What is justification? Do you have a definition?

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father is in heaven.

That's in the context of false prophets isn't it? Mathew 7:15 - 23. And how can we possibly know for certain who has 'got it right' since there is so much division and difference between what the church (in the widest sense of the word) believes? So it is by faith that we have to trust that we are on the right track.

How does one ask Jesus personally into their lives, but refuse to eat his Body and drink his Blood as He commanded. What sort of acceptance is that?

I thought all protestants took communion as part of their act of worship.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

To call Jesus Lord, you are accepting Him as the Christ. These false prophets do things in Jesus' name but are not saved.

Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:23

[hecklingsoul]

I thought all protestants took communion as part of their act of worship.

Can anything be said about all protestants. Their beliefs differ so much between them, it would be too much of a generalization to say they all believe anything. ;)

[Anna]

That's in the context of false prophets isn't it? Mathew 7:15 - 23.  And how can we possibly know for certain who has 'got it right' since there is so much division and difference between what the church (in the widest sense of the word) believes? So it is by faith that we have to trust that we are on the right track.

No, we can't just blindly go by faith to figure out which of the more than 33,000 denominations calling themselves "Christians" have it right.

God gave us a brain, and he expects us to use it.

We must use faith, combined with reason.

Luther encouraged folks to go by "Faith alone," cuz if they threw reason out the window, he could get them to follow his irrational and unbiblical doctrines...

By using reason, we would ask ourselves, "Well, what did the Apostles believe?" "What did they teach?" St. John the Evangelist taught St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was the third bishop of Antioch. He's one of the earliest Christian writers. He's also the first to call the Church "Catholic." Instead of relying on your gut, use your head. Study history....beyond the 1500's!

I thought all protestants took communion as part of their act of worship.

Few denominations believe that their communion is the Body and Blood of Jesus, and rightfully so, for it isn't. They don't have proper form, proper matter, nor do they have the essential: a duly ordained priest to consecrate!

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

God gave us a brain and he expects us to use it. We must use faith combined with reason

I absolutely agree with you Anna! However what I might see as reason another person might not, and they may well have reached their reason through just as much intellectual understanding as I have mine. Isn't that where the faith bit comes in? There have been people of astounding intellect in different denominations haven't there, convinced that their reason is the right one!

Few denominations believe that their communion is the Body and Blood of Jesus.....They don't have proper form, proper matter, nor do they have the essential; a duly ordained priest to consecrate.

What do you mean by proper form and proper manner? I have not, until I came to Phatmass and recently begun to consider the apostolic ordination of priests ever questioned that my form of communion in the anglican church was anything less that the proper' form of communion.

[Anna]

I'm not necessarily referring to the Anglican Church, but some as of late who have come upon this phorum have spoken of celebrating the Lord's supper with grape juice and crackers, coke and pizza, juice and french toast....that is not proper matter. It must be a specific type of grape wine, and unleavened bread of flour and water.

The form is the formula of prayers recited to consecrate.

And this must be done by a duly ordained priest.

Regarding your other remarks about reason, yes, I agree, there are plenty of intelligent people in various denominations. But it may not be their intelligence that keeps them in that denomination. It may be that they are comfortable in a place that encourages the lifestyle they want to live....a church that ok's divorce and remarriage, contraception, sterilization, homosexual acts, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah....There are many reasons a person chooses a church, and not all the reasons are based on Faith and Reason.

Pax Christi. <><

[hecklingsoul]

...what I might see as reason another person might not, and they may well have reached their reason through just as much intellectual understanding as I have mine. Isn't that where the faith bit comes in?

I don't think so. When Jesus sent out His 12 apostles to feed his sheep, he taught them the true interpretation. They have been preserving that truth ever since through apostolic succession in the Catholic church. We don't have to guess at the truth, Jesus gave us a teaching authority to teach it and maintain it. And never shall the gates of hell prevail against it.

[ICTHUS]

It must be a specific type of grape wine, and unleavened bread of flour and water. 

The form is the formula of prayers recited to consecrate.

And this must be done by a duly ordained priest.

Regarding improper matter -

1. What's the type of wine

2. What about the Eastern Catholic Churches, who use leavened bread and/or whole loaves of bread for the Sacred Host?

[Freaky Chik]

on that whole intellect thing...

1 Corinthians 1

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[3]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[4]

1 Corinthians 2

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[5] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no mind has conceived

what God has prepared for those who love him"[6] -- 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[7] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16"For who has known the mind of the Lord

that he may instruct him?"[8] But we have the mind of Christ.

[Norseman82]

What is justification?  Do you have a definition?

CATECHISM:

1987: The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism: But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 1988: Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: [God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37 1989: The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man." 1990: Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals. 1991: Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us. 1992: Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 1993: Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42 1994: Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy. 1995: The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being: Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45 2018: Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high. 2019: Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man. 2020: Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

One other thing. From my dialoguing with protestants that I deal with, most of them look upon being saved as the moment they first accepted Christ, and that's it; Catholics realize that it is a lifelong process. Protestants are concerned about "are you saved now" or "when were you saved" whereas we Catholics are worried about the state of our soul at the moment of death.

[hyperdulia again]

Salvation is not a thing that comes from altar calls and the “Sinner’s Prayer”. It comes from dying and rising with Christ in baptism, it comes from receiving the Holy Sprit at Confirmation, it comes from eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our Lord, it comes from being dead to the world and dead to sin, but alive to Christ. Salvation is not an act, a fixed point in time, it is the process of growing more like Christ.

Protestants tend to speak of salvation as if it is something that happened yesterday, or something that will happen tomorrow, this is erroneous, salvation is happening right now in the Catholic view of things it is a process that ends only when life ends and we are enfolded in the arms of our waiting Lord in Heaven.