Paphnutius Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 26 2005, 02:54 PM'] As far as anathmatizing someone to get them closer to God, Paul used it, and in the Council of Trent it was used. It's a sure form of getting people to think about what they are doing and where they stand. [/quote] The difference there is that those that they were talking to believed in some sort of eternal consequence for their actions, or believed in some higher being that will judge them. These people obviously do not, so no I do not think that condeming them to hell to their will do anything else other than make them laugh. You have to meet people where they are at, and if these do not believe in God then how can you talk to them about the after life and expect them to take you seriously? Dont put the carriage before the horse. You have done a slight of hand here. I said do not condem all of their followers because you cannot possibly know all of their states of mind, heart, and will. You here are talking about the founders of the philosophy. Personally I know some who follow Sartre and Nietzche who do not hate the Church, but simply do not believe in God. Are they going to hell? I think there is a good chance if they continue to deny God, but that does not mean that telling them they are going to burn will change their mind if they do not first believe in it. Once again I am just saying do not make blanket statements about a certain group's damnability unless you know everyone in that group personally. I am well aware of baptism by desire, by blood etc...As I said, we believe the same thing, I am just asking you to be more precise. Condem Sarte, that is fine ( I guess, you are right about knowing the cause from its effect), but do not be so presumptious to be able to beaver dam all who follow him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 26 2005, 02:54 PM'] if they put anyone before God (even if not knowing so) will surely perish. [/quote] Are you aware that ignorance diminishes culpability? True, if someone places God before others it is a sin, but if they are not fully aware of it is it still damnable? I am saying here that one cannot say that because person performs action X they are surely going to hell. You and I cannot know that, especially if they are not aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Whether knowing so or not, a prerequist for heaven is baptism. While ordinary Baptism may not be available to someone who has never heard of the Faith, baptism of desire is available as is proclaimed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Since baptism of disire is most likely the baptism a person who never hears of Christianity will be baptized then they must desire to serve God. These people not only heard of God (As they lived in Western society, it is impossible to miss Him, and most of them lived pre-sexual revolution) but they rejected Him and his Church. ACtion X in this case rejecting the Church is damnable, and Christ proclaimd when he sent out his disciples to evangalize in pairs of two. Of course, it can be forgiven, and I hope that these people made an act of contrition before their death, but I also realize that there is any reason to believe that any of them did. While we hope for the salvation of all, we must realize that it is not a reality as things stand. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 So you are saying that if someone places something else before God out of ignorance they are going to hell? Once again I am not applying the baptism of desire as a defense for these people. Their deeds do indeed show their view of the Church, but to say that all of their followers are also damned is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Would a person who seeks God truthfully and honestly be compelled to join one of these people? It is true that we all fail, but we must persevere to the end. I don't think I said all their followers went to hell, or at least thats not what I meant, but simply that did send many souls to hell in their hate for the Church and Her teachings. It is why it is a sad thing to me. But again, if anyone seeks God, would he be led astray by the devil and his handmaidens? Surely all can repent and that is what I hope they all did. I don't have a biography on each follower of these men, and many of those followers are alive. But I don't suspect anyone truely seeking God would end up looking there. AT least not a loving and carin God. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 [quote]Would a person who seeks God truthfully and honestly be compelled to join one of these people? It is true that we all fail, but we must persevere to the end. I don't think I said all their followers went to hell, or at least thats not what I meant,[/quote] Ok because this is what i heard... [quote]those same heretics caused nothing but eternal damnation for their followers[/quote] They did indeed lead many astray and to their doom. [quote]But again, if anyone seeks God, would he be led astray by the devil and his handmaidens? [/quote] When last I checked that was the devil's intent, yes. I agree with you on the most part, I just think we all need to be careful when saying all people in group "X Y and Z" are going to hell. The only way a person can get to hell is by their own choice. God does not condem them, they do that themselves by turning their back on God. Many of these people did just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 (edited) There are many predecessors to those listed; Voltaire, being the most noteworthy. The mother of all these anti-Christ, heretical philosophies however, is Judaism, as evidenced in the phrase coined by Tertullian, "Synagogae judaeorum, fontes persecutionis" (The Jewish synagogues are the sources for the Catholic persecutions). Pope St. Pius V affirmed, "We know that this most perverse people (adherants to Judaism) has always been the cause of and the breeding ground for almost all the heresies." ("Hebraeorum gens" February 26, 1569) Edited March 27, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 ^ Full of BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Mar 26 2005, 08:08 PM'] ^ Full of BS [/quote] Care to elaborate, Church Militant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 broken record.... that is what BS means. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Theoketos']^ Full of BS [/quote] [quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2005, 10:58 PM'] broken record.... that is what BS means. Cam [/quote] It's sad to see the great tradition and history of the Catholic church treated with such contempt. If it weren't for the courageous militancy of great Catholics like Pope St. Pius V, the falling away which we witness today would have began in their time. Edited March 27, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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