Who gets to decide?

[Jaime]

One of the goals of proper catechesis is the rightly formed conscience. With a rightly formed conscience, we are better equipped to make the daily decisions in our lives. I've heard many people talk about the idea of a rightly formed conscience and infer that they were in possession of one.

The question that I have is, "Can a person assess for himself/herself that (s)he truly has a rightly formed conscience? "

[Cam42]

Great question.....

Short answer, I would say no. That is why we have the Church. Precisely because we are sinful, we cannot judge for ourselves. It is ultimately the problem of evil.

However, I won't say any more. I want to see what others say. I will add more later.

Hey hot stuff, where did you get that Theology degree from again?

Cam

[Cam42]

I think that this is an important question and/or potential discussion, so........

Bump-arino.

Cam

[cmotherofpirl]

Good question
The answer is no.

[Cam42]

Why no?

Surely you have a reason for saying no. Whatdya think?

Cam

[God Conquers]

That is a GREAT question....

I would be hesitant, however to try and answer it...

Of course I'd LIKE to say I have a well-formed conscience, but then again I'm not very objective.

It's clear that I make moral mistakes, which I can sometimes attribute to bad conscience (I mean, wouldn't it speak up more?)

Then again, is our measuring stuck the Church? Because if so, isn't there a bit of circular logic? You have a well-formed concience if you adhere to the teachings of the Church and your adherence to those teachings determines the well-formedness(?) of your conscience.

Tough.... for me at any rate....

I'd like to see some of the more scholastically inclined weigh in on this one.

[Jaime]

Me too! I really think this can generate some interesting discussion.


And I'm a [b]littleles[/b] tired of banging my head against the wall on other threads.

Oops Freudian slip

[thessalonian]

Paul says that he knows nothing against himself yet holds out the possibility that even he could be decieving himself. Can't remember the verse but that's the gist of it. So, no the individual can't be the final judge of right or wrong based on his or her conscience. This Terri Shiavo thing in Florida is a prime example of how easily peoples consciences can be decieved. Stay with the Church and it's moral teachings and you will be fine however.

[Jaime]

[quote] Stay with the Church and it's moral teachings and you will be fine however.[/quote]

That is the first step to a rightly formed conscience. Assent your will to all Church teachings.

So if someone has assented their will completely to the Church, would they be justified in believing that they had a rightly formed conscience?

[thessalonian]

A couple of related verses:

2 Corinthians 11 [Context] [Commentary]

3. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15 [Context] [Commentary]

33. Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

1 Cor 3
18: Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

1 John 1
8: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Gal 6
3: For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Prov 3:5
Trust not in your own understanding, but rely on the Lord

Jer 3:15
I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING.


We can be deceived. We need to keep an ear to the Shepherds that Christ has left us.

[MichaelFilo]

The human person cannot attain perfection without God. Ther eis no promise of a perfect concious, and even 1000 years of living will make our concious anymore perfect. The concious is a sure standard if well-formed, but we can never truely tell if it is fully formed. That is why they hadn out those pamphlets to help you examine your sins... because we aren't the best judges, as we are partial and aren't perfect nor can we attain it (without God). Id on't remember any promises about having a perfectly formed concious.

God bless,
Mikey

[james]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 25 2005, 01:01 AM']

The question that I have is, "Can a person assess for himself/herself that (s)he truly has a rightly formed conscience? " [/quote]

A properly formed conscience has the ability to perceive truth. If it is true that a person's conscience is properly formed, that person can perceive that their conscience is properly formed.

Talk of [i]perfectly[/i] formed consciences is rather abstract, unless it is applied to our Blessed Mother.

Edited March 28, 2005 by james

[philothea]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 25 2005, 01:01 AM']One of the goals of proper catechesis is the rightly formed conscience.  With a rightly formed conscience, we are better equipped to make the daily decisions in our lives.  I've heard many people talk about the idea of a rightly formed conscience and infer that they were in possession of one. 

The question that I have is, "Can a person assess for himself/herself that (s)he truly has a rightly formed conscience? "[/quote]
Does "rightly formed" mean "entirely correct"? If it does, then no, I don't see how anyone can evaluate themselves to that degree, making it a useless concept.

I think having "rightly formed conscience" ought to mean that someone has examined whatever moral questions they face, researched anything pertinent: philosophy, economics, church teaching, effect on others, etc., prayed about it, and [i]then[/i] made the best decision(s) they could. (They should keep reevaluating as situations change, too.)

I think that would qualify as having a rightly formed conscience. I think a person could evaluate whether they'd done so.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 27 2005, 07:12 PM'] Why no?

Surely you have a reason for saying no. Whatdya think?

Cam [/quote]
Easter supper is not conducive to deep thoughts.

Did you ever try to successfully measure how tall you are?

Because of the sin of Adam I have a permanent tendency toward sin and self deception. I can convince myself of anything and everything if I want it badly enough. I can never by objective or [totally rational] or outside myself to see what can be plainly apparent to others.

I want to be 5'4". And I can twist and turn to make it so. But its not reality.
I need a yardstick to measure by, and someone else to do the measuring.



Consciences are the same.

[CarpeDiem88]

No. God can only do that.

Your conscience is highlighted by conviction. If you're convicted about something you've done, it's all in it's own time. Conviction determines a rightly formed conscience. You'll never know someone else's conviction, unless they let you know.

Like I said, it's up to God.

[Paphnutius]

Romans 12: 13-21

"Do not be wise in your own estimation."

James 19-25

"A man who listens to God's word but does not put it into practice is like a man who looks into a mirror at the face he was born with: he looks at himself, then goes off and promtply forgets what he looked like. There is, on the other hand, the man who peers into freedom's ideal law and abides by it. He is no forgetful listener, but one who accries out the law in practice. Bles will the man be in whatever he does."

I think that this discussion overlaps some with the virtue of humility.

The first step as mentioned earlier is to submit one's conscience to being formed by the teachings of the Church and by the Word of God. From there it depends if the person truly listens and applies it. As the scripture says some will listen and look at themselves and then forget what they saw. Others will practice it. If a person truly is on the way to having a rightly formed conscience I belive that one will grow in the virtue of humility. We must remember that part of having a rightly formed conscience is being able to distinguish between good acts and bad acts, good thought and bad thoughts, truth and non-truth (in the moral sense).

I think that a certain point during this development one will become aware that one is indeed forming a conscience oriented towards God. Granted, we can be self decieved and rationalize what we do, but if they have truly listened, internalized, and put into practice the teachings and Word, one comes to a truer knowledge of self. This is humility: knowing oneself truly with the Grace of God. Not walking around with one's head down all the time, but knowing where one's true strenghts and true weaknesses are. One knows that one is intellegent/a little slower learner, good at sports/not that athletic, even one knows what tempations one struggles with if one has fostered humility. A person who is humble knows their own weaknesses and where they need to continue how to grow.

This ties in with knowing if one has a rightly formed conscience thusly: A rightly formed conscience will lead to the virtue of humility (truly knowing oneself self), when one is humble one will recongize where one still needs to grow. This does not mean that the person says, "I have a rightly formed consicne now." But rather, "I still need to work in these areas of struggle and temptation." A rightly formed conscience will be able to better assess how it is progressing towards that love and practice of God's will. It will not look back and say, "I have come this far that is enough," but, "I still have this far to go." It is not a matter of judging oneself in terms of salvation, but rather coming to a truer knowledge of self in the moral realm and recongizing areas of growth or setback.

The person cannot judge himself alone, but rather needs the aid and assistance of God and His people. The conscinece, no matter how far down the right path, always needs that aid and support of fellow Christians to continue to grow. So I suppose my answer is this: One may assess that one is headed down the correct path, but a rightly formed conscience will always be mindful of how far it has yet to go. As MichaelFilo said, "We cannot reach perfection without God." The rightly formed conscience will never be complacent with where it is in moral terms but continue to seek ways to grow and improve. Knowing and admiting that one is on the way to "perfecting" one's conscience is not wrong so long as one always keeps in mind they can never achieve it by himself and that they always have a long ways to go. If one says that they have a rightly formed conscience but it is apparent that they do not, there is a philosophical principle that can apply here: A cause is known through its effects. If a person is blatantly sinning and shows no signs of contrition or even progress in working on that, I would say they are self decieved if they imagine they are devout. That is where fellow Christians come in.

That being said, however, the best "judge" of a rightly formed conscience is one that is spiritually mature (e.g.: A spiritual director).

[CarpeDiem88]

[quote]That being said, however, the best "judge" of a rightly formed conscience is one that is spiritually mature (e.g.: A spiritual director). [/quote]

or [b]God[/b]...

[Guest JeffCR07]

It seems to me that the rightly formed conscience is more than simple intellectual conscent to the teachings of the Church, but rather, the rightly formed conscience is the one that concurrs with the teachings of the Church.

One can observe a rightly formed conscience in action (even one's own) when the free exercise of that conscience arrives at the same conclusion as does the Church on a given issue.

Posited negatively, one can observe the unformed conscience in action (even one's own) when the free exercise of that conscience arrives at a conclusion that is in opposition to the teaching of the Church on a given issue.

Now, it also must be noted that no one has a [i]perfectly[/i] formed conscience - that is to say, a conscience which is rightly formed in all matters. All of our consciences are rightly formed in some places and unformed in others.


It has been questioned as to whether or not the above definition of the rightly formed conscience is an instance of circular logic, and I reply in the negative.

We must understand that the rightly exercised conscience is nothing more than an individual faculty for perceiving truth. The Holy Mother Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, who is Truth, and she is guided by the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Truth. Recalling that the role of the properly formed conscience is the recognition of Truth, we see that one could also state that the role of the properly formed conscience is the recognition of the Church.

In this manner, we see that no "begging the question" exists, because we are merely speaking of the faculty of perception and the thing perceived.

- Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Jaime]

[quote]I think that this discussion overlaps some with the virtue of humility[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. If the saints show us anything, it is that the closer they come to setting the example, the less worthy they feel about being that example. If anyone can be used to demonstrate a properly formed conscience, it would be the saints.

I think that attaining a properly or rightly formed conscience is a journey that continues till death. I think it is the journey that is important and not the final goal.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='CarpeDiem88' date='Mar 28 2005, 11:44 AM']
or [b]God[/b]... [/quote]
Lol, yeah I just thought that went without saying I suppose...

It seems like we agree that a rightly formed conscience includes recongizing and knowing truth. So it would appear that the more rightly formed conscience on has the more one would recongize how unformed one's conscience is. Since we all fall far short of the goal that is. A rightly formed conscience would almost never say, "I am this close," bit would seem always to say, "I am still this far."