The Debate of the Afterlife

[CarpeDiem88]

Protestants and Catholics have differing views between the afterlife and whether or not there are levels of hell. So to have a debate, the question at hand would be: "How many levels of hell do you believe in, why do you believe in them, and how do they relate to the doctrinal belief of a specific denomination?"

Personally, I believe there is Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven. That's it. But if anyone else wants to insert their two pense, go for it. It'd be greatly appreciated because I'm trying to figure this stuff out.

[Paphnutius]

When you say circles of hell, are you referring to the Inferno?

[Aloysius]

The abode of the dead, Jewish "sheol", was the place where all souls went before Christ came. That is what we mean in the Creed when we say Christ descended into hell, we are not speaking of the eternal place of suffering but to the abode of the dead. This place also became known to the scholastics as "limbo" where people who were not culpable for any sin but still had original sin (unbaptized) went, a place of perfect natural hapiness (the easterns don't like this phrase ). I've never been quite sure but I do sympathize with this view of a limbo for people who were never baptized but also are not culpable for any actual sins since by the original sin they cannot enter heaven, but I don't see God damning anyone who has no culpability for any actual sin. This is where the just before Christ came went, and Christ came the first time and freed people from here. So too, if there still exists a limbo in the abode of the dead, might Christ free them at His Second Coming. Just some thoughts...

I think that there are differing levels of hell depending on just how bad the state of a person's soul is when he enters eternity. It seems only fair and sensible that Divine Eternal Punishment would fit the crime.

And from Jesus' own words it seems there are different "levels" in Heaven, as He spoke of who would be greatest/least in the Kingdom of Heaven. The levels in heaven would obviously be more fair than any social levels we have on earth, everyone will absolutely deserve the place they have. But we'll all be in the beatific vision in a state of perfect supernatural hapiness so it's all good.

[Melchisedec]

Can all these destinations be backed up by scripture? For example limbo, purgatory? Also, the early jews didnt believe in afterlife. Sheol, was merely a grave and not a destination for spirits.

[Aloysius]

sheol was the abode of the dead popularly understood by ancient Jews as the "bosom of Abraham", the place where just jews went after death.

the ancient Jewish custom of praying FOR the dead that they be released from their sins proves the existence of a purgatory, a purification. in the second book of Maccabees, in the Catholic Bible only but from whence the story of Hannakah comes from, Judas Maccabees prays for his fallen comerades that they be released from the idolatry they gave into.

Ancient Judaism did believe in an afterlife, evident in their prayers for the dead, belief in the ressurection of the dead, and many of their legends, stories, and beliefs in the Bible and elsewhere. St. Paul relates one of these legends with the Devil and God arguing over the soul of Moses. Jesus tells a story of Lazarus and the rich guy in which the rich guy ends up in eternal hell while Lazarus is in "the bosom of Abraham". He told this to a Jewish audience who all believed such things.

So it is erroneous to say that "sheol" was just a grave and nothing more. Sheol was the abode of the dead, where dead people went and the just there awaited the ressurection of the body.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Mar 28 2005, 04:10 PM'] sheol was the abode of the dead popularly understood by ancient Jews as the "bosom of Abraham", the place where just jews went after death.

the ancient Jewish custom of praying FOR the dead that they be released from their sins proves the existence of a purgatory, a purification. in the second book of Maccabees, in the Catholic Bible only but from whence the story of Hannakah comes from, Judas Maccabees prays for his fallen comerades that they be released from the idolatry they gave into.

Ancient Judaism did believe in an afterlife, evident in their prayers for the dead, belief in the ressurection of the dead, and many of their legends, stories, and beliefs in the Bible and elsewhere. St. Paul relates one of these legends with the Devil and God arguing over the soul of Moses. Jesus tells a story of Lazarus and the rich guy in which the rich guy ends up in eternal hell while Lazarus is in "the bosom of Abraham". He told this to a Jewish audience who all believed such things.

So it is erroneous to say that "sheol" was just a grave and nothing more. Sheol was the abode of the dead, where dead people went and the just there awaited the ressurection of the body. [/quote]
The word 'sheol' means 'The Grave'.

[Aloysius]

literally, yes. but it was used to refer to the "abode of the dead"

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Mar 28 2005, 04:10 PM'] in the second book of Maccabees, in the Catholic Bible only but from whence the story of Hannakah comes from, [/quote]
I've never heard of this book, could you explain more?

[Paphnutius]

It is a deuterocanonical book in the Roman Catholic Old Testament. It covers the Jewish revolt lead by the Mattathias household against Greek persecution.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Marty Luther took it out.

[Aloysius]

The Rabbinic Council of Jamnia (didn't even have authority by Jewish standards let alone Christian) in A.D. 90 was actually the first to take it out because the only copies left of it at the time were in the greek translation of the hebrew scriptures. All hebrew manuscripts of these books were lost some time after they were translated into the Greek Septuagint. The Jews were attempting to distance themselves from the Christians so they cut off all writings that were in greek or had to do with Christ.

Martin Luther accepted their canon for the Old Testament, then took the Catholic 27 books for his new testament (well, tried to make it 24 but that's another story).

Anyway, the book is one glorifying the revolt of traditional jews against hellenism and greek control over israel. in it, some of the fighters had given into pagan worship and Judas Maccabees discovered this after they had been slain in battle. He prayed that they be released from their sin. It clearly shows that Judaism had a concept of a purification after death and thus ultimately some concept of an afterlife. It is a book about being very strictly against adoption of greek ideas, to the point of slaughtering any jew in assosiation with adopting greek ideas, so you cannot chalk it up to them being influenced by the greeks.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Yes, Aloysius you're absolutely right. I later regretted being simplistic and knew I would get called on it.

I suppose what I should have said is that before the Reformation it was part of (Christian) Holy Scripture.

[MichaelFilo]

While as a Catholic I accept limbo, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory I also believe that hell isn't just one big "hell". I certainly do believe in levels of hell, as a man who dies living in mortal sin (of only one sort) is far from a Hitler or Stalin. Both are equally disconnected with God, but God is also a fair judge, even to his enemies.

God bless,
Mikey

[CarpeDiem88]

I think exactly what Mikey thinks, but then again, I won't know for sure until I die, am I mistaken?