What I Have Learned From Phatmass

[mulls]

" Mulls, it's true that a lot of Catholics have been poorly catechized and evangelized. But to blame it on the Church is a cop-out. "

then who else is there to blame it on? the individual? i think that's the cop-out.

i'm not copping-out of anything. i have nothing to hide, nothing to avoid. i'm being as honest as i can possibly be....i figured i owed at least that much to everyone here for being so good to me.

i do know of faithful catholics, i already emphasized that, and i am thankful for that. i'm speaking of the majority (yes yes narrow is the road, don't come back at me with that).

i urge everyone to re-read my previous two posts closely, and carefully, with an open mind. it's about as honest and open as i have ever been.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mulls thank you with being honest with us

But this is not a problem of just the Catholic church, it is all of society.

We have lost our soul.

It started in 1968 (although it had deep roots) when people decided to pursue selfish pleasure and the culture of me, instead of the sacrifices and self-giving of family life.

It culminated in Roe vs Wade that a mother can legally kill her children.

Now we routinely kill the old, the maimed, the less than perfect, the helpless, and the unwanted.

We make babies in glass jars and can now combine species for fun and profit.

We have lost our humanity.

The only place on the whole earth that is trying to hold the line and take back the culture is the Catholic Church.

[Uncle Gus]

Mulls, please point out to us the one perfect church. Thank you.

[littleflower+JMJ]

could claim to say the same thing but i would never cease to be catholic because the humans are not perfect. Its God who's perfect, not us. and if your looking for perfect people, good luck.

and i see some of those "occurances" also mulls, we're not blind. but we do something about it by living out our faith and learning about it and sharing about it. but like cmom said, its everywhere, our society and culture is drifting farther and farther from God.

i understand where you are coming from....but i'm being very honest when i say thats not a good enough reason to reject the Catholic Church.

the Catholic Church does in fact try to bring our separated brothers and sisters home mulls, but not all of them are as willing to learn what the Catholic Church teaches.

The catholic church does teach salvation, etc. etc. God said he would never leave us orphan mulls and the Catholic Church is PROOF of this promise.

how can we doubt what God himself said? 2,000 years! and i trust God's gonna take care of His Church for another 2,000 years.

my history teacher back in high school called all of us catholics "sitting ducks" because we didtn' know who, what when where, about our own faith, what we believed in or anything about our religion. he laughed in my face. until I started answering him back and for once he was quiet.

st. francis of assisi also saw the Church lacking in evangelization but instead of rejecting, he started his own crusade and converted millions through his faith and made things better and built the Church up from within making ever stronger.

today we have catholic apologitics ( http://www.surprisedbytruth.com http://www.catholic.com ) who are defending our Holy Mother Church thru teaching us catholics are faith and what we're all about.

maybe you should become catholic and fix whats going on in your neck of the woods mulls. God needs ppl like you to help His One True Church.

we are his hands and arms. and everything you decide upon is up to you, we can only do so much mulls and the rest is yours.

i recommend at least taking RCIA classes if theres a good class offered around you.

somethings you need to hear in person to understand.

God bless you mulls and know im praying for you!

your sister in christ,

flowery

@)>~~~~

[mulls]

you people aren't reading my posts closely enough

Mulls, please point out to us the one perfect church. Thank you.

gus, if you read closely, i already covered myself for this question...

i don't believe lies about the church, and i don't lie to others about what it teaches. i do explain what the church really does teach, to the best of my ability, and why i don't believe it to be correct.

i don't pretend to have all the answers, so i advise anybody i talk to about this situation to read the bible and study other sources for themselves.

[Donna]

Mulls, thank you for clarifying.

Anna I agree with, and I have seen a certain type of Catholic too often as she describes.

I also think you have a true point that cannot be argued against.

Theses are not normal times in the Church. Statistically so as well. If Don John was the Pope you'd probably see the fire you want.

That kind of fire across the board in unabshed burning, to my limited knowledge and opinion, is in the Traditionalists.

And before anyone pounces on what I have written, get a copy of Pope Leo XIII's original full-length version of the St. Michael Prayer. And look at La Salette, which Blessed Pius IX wasn't too scandalized to read and make known, tho it contained very unsavory remarks about the cleregy, and the hierarchy.

And, read St. Pius X Pascendi. These Popes weren't afraid to say that there are enemies of the Church within her; and esp. Pius X acted accordingly with vigilance, brethren. Diocesan Vigilance Committee's; Bishops reporting regularly to Papa himself on Modernism in their diocese's; seminaries were not the Pink Palace, O no, Precious. No one, I believe even suspected of Modernism (the synthesis of all hereies) was allowed a position of power.

(But Mulls here we are talking of two distinct and different things.

And,

'tis not all bad in the Church. Look at how the PM-ers pray for you, and for me, both black sheep. What would I do without the PM prayers)!

Either way it does not matter. For the Church is the Fortress. I am talking about the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. THAT is the Church. And we - and you, Mulls -are doomed without her.

May God bless you, and lead you to where He will.

[littleflower+JMJ]

mulls we care about ya don't ever forget that...why else would this thread be so long?

but i really don't understand how one cannot accept the Catholic Church, the pillar of truth and the foundation that for 2,000 the whole world has been riding on for morals, for truth, for guidance.....if we won't accept that....then where do we go?

if we cannot find truth in what Jesus himself established, where will we find it?

"Lord, to whom shall we go?"

John 6:63-68

its quite simple. there is no other.

God bless!

+JMJ

~flowery~

let it be said that there is never a good reason to leave/reject the Church. Mt 16:18 "the gates of hell will not prevail"

[jasJis]

mulls, mulls, mulls...

You are railing against human nature.

Why not be mad at God because He let's us sin and ignore and reject the gift of Grace He gives us? Why not be mad at Him because He allows people to sin and wreak evil on themselves and others who are innocent?

I am sure you are familiar with the bible stories of the Pearl of Great Price and the Treasure in the field? Both the Pearl and Treasure are our love for God. The Treasure in the field was walked and worked around for years before it was discovered. This seems to be what upsets you.

How can the Church allow people to wander around within it and be oblivious? I was one of those people. I went to 12 years of Catholic School with hardly an inkling of the requirement of personal commitment. Is that the Church's fault, or my own? I will tell you the greater part of it is my own fault. I knew and know many others who "got it" during school. Why did they, and not me? We went to the same schools and parish.

I'm a teacher for teens in preperation for Confirmation now. I see CCD kids and Catholic School kids. I've done if for a few years and personally know many dozens of stories. There are some typical attitudes of the kids, but no hard and fast rules. Many Catholic school kids are apathetic. But so are many CCD kids. Many are on-fire, but many are not. Kid's generally at that age aren't, but not all.

Grace is a gift, not a heavy burden. God calls and draws, but does not force. When I decided to take my Faith seriously, and I was open to any religion and denomination, the many avenues of Grace, and the complete understanding of human nature in the Catholic Church is where I went.

I know stupid priests. Mental nuns. A Church heirarchy encumbered with beauracracy. Bad decisions and examples by Catholic School teachers. Church volunteers and leaders that don't seem very Christian.

But it is about me and God personally. It's up to me if I get caught up in the failures of others and fail to see the graces in the Church. That's my fault. Maybe I'm supposed to help, instead of complain. Maybe I'm supposed to forgive other's tresspasses to the same degree I want God to forgive mine!

I have too many good Christian friends that are Baptist, Pentecostal, non-Denominational, etc., to think human perfection is always found in their Church either. Nor is God's grace absent from their Church.

You always find what you are looking for. If you look for more bad than good, you find it. If you look for all the bad and all the good, you just might get an accurate picture. We are save by Grace. It is about being open to Grace. Don't swallow a camel but choke on a mite.

[PedroX]

Mulls,

What about the Presbyterians who know longer know Calvinism? Or the Methodists who invoke the great spirit? Or growing number of unaffiliated or "non-denominational" churches who teach that there is no such thing as systematic theology? All of these are example of bad catechisis in our churches. The faith of Jesus Christ is suffering everywhere. We all lack a leadership that is brave and unafraid.

However, we as Catholics have the hope. We have the promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail. As I sit discouraged in my smoking room, I rest in the promise that one day we will win. Nuns will actually rejoice in the priceless depository of faith. Priests will fearlessly call us to the confessional and agree with us that we have sinned. The laity will begin to change to secular structures of injustice and leave the sacristry to the ordained. The oaths against modernism will come back and the local Ordinaries will be pastors and not CEO's. Oh, yes, we will win. It has been promised us. The question is, will you be with us? My prayers at Compline (night prayers) will remember you.

peace...

[cmotherofpirl]

Even though we don't like it, the wheat and the weeds grow together until harvest time. We would like to rip those weeds out, and see the wheat growing freely.

So the Lord says ok, I'll do it, I remove all the weedes right now.

And He comes and stands in front of you.

Humanity and humans are a mixed bag. If you live long enough and reflect on your life you will see sometimes you were the wheat , sometimes you were the weed.

And as my grandma said, some people are here just to show you how not to act.

At the general judgement we will stand before God and see how every word and action affected and changed each other and the world for good or ill.

[mulls]

But it is about me and God personally

exactly. the pope should proclaim this every time he speaks publically. every priest should be required to emphasize this point during every homily.

All of these are example of bad catechisis in our churches. The faith of Jesus Christ is suffering everywhere. We all lack a leadership that is brave and unafraid

right. but in every non-catholic church i have been to (which isn't many to be fair), a personal relationship between you and God is stressed. the pastor can't do it for you, the choir can't do it for you, it doesn't matter how much money you give, it doesn't matter how many times you go to church per week....you gotta get down with God yourself.

it may sound like i'm contradicting myself here, after blaming the Church for people's apathy, but i'm not. what i'm saying is that the Church needs to try as hard as it can to get people into a personal relationship with God. you cannot leave a service at my own church without hearing this each and every time. and it never gets redundant. it's true and effective.

[Jake Huether]

exactly. the pope should proclaim this every time he speaks publically. every priest should be required to emphasize this point during every homily.

right. but in every non-catholic church i have been to (which isn't many to be fair), a personal relationship between you and God is stressed. the pastor can't do it for you, the choir can't do it for you, it doesn't matter how much money you give, it doesn't matter how many times you go to church per week....you gotta get down with God yourself.

it may sound like i'm contradicting myself here, after blaming the Church for people's apathy, but i'm not.  what i'm saying is that the Church needs to try as hard as it can to get people into a personal relationship with God. you cannot leave a service at my own church without hearing this each and every time. and it never gets redundant.  it's true and effective.

"it may sound like i'm contradicting myself here, after blaming the Church for people's apathy, but i'm not. what i'm saying is that the Church needs to try as hard as it can to get people into a personal relationship with God. you cannot leave a service at my own church without hearing this each and every time. and it never gets redundant. it's true and effective."

Mulls the Church has done EVERYTHING she can! At each and every Mass we are OFFERED a VERY personal relationship with Christ! His BODY and BLOOD to cosume, my friend! How much more personal can you get?

It isn't the fault of the Church, she can't force it down our throats. Individual (or even collectivly) priests aren't "the Church". The Pope has done more good for the Church (traveling to several hundred countries, etc.) than any person (Catholic or Protestant) before!

The reason you are all fired up and think that the Prots are doing so well in teaching a "personal relationship with Christ" is because it is more palletable and watered down! No joke! Was it Christ's fault when MANY of his desciples stopped following him after he proclaimed his FLESH as the life of the world!

Are you blaming Christ for Judas! That's what your saying! "Judas could have been saved if Christ did MORE". "more Catholics can be saved if the Church does MORE".

I can't believe this!

The Church is responsible for YOUR salvation! Look at the Bible in your hand and thank the Church that she protected it for all those years so that you might have AT LEAST 66 BOOKS!

Okay, I'm done venting....

[Paladin D]

I respect your opinions Mulls, even though I may disagree.

[mulls]

Mulls the Church has done EVERYTHING she can! At each and every Mass we are OFFERED a VERY personal relationship with Christ! His BODY and BLOOD to cosume, my friend! How much more personal can you get?

then why do so many people walk right out the door after receiving communion? why is this allowed? how many people actually examine their consicences thoroughly before receiving communion like the bible says? why doesn't the priest warn about the consequences of receiving the eucharist in the state of sin?

and now to get everyone fired up...

most people only receive the eucharist once a week...are you saying that this once-a-week act is the extent and epitome of one's relationship with Christ? what happens when they go home? what about wednesday night at 3am?

[mulls]

I respect your opinions Mulls, even though I may disagree.

thank you paladin, that's all i ask.

[Paladin D]

then why do so many people walk right out the door after receiving communion? why is this allowed? how many people actually examine their consicences thoroughly before receiving communion like the bible says? why doesn't the priest warn about the consequences of receiving the eucharist in the state of sin?

and now to get everyone fired up...

most people only receive the eucharist once a week...are you saying that this once-a-week act is the extent and epitome of one's relationship with Christ?  what happens when they go home? what about wednesday night at 3am?

Mulls, the Catholic Church isn't the only one, who has members who tend to be ignorant or not "on fire" so to speak.

Josh McDowell (non-Catholic Christian) was giving statistics concerning the state of the Christian churches in America. He said that around 50% of Protestants, who claim to be Christian, have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. (Not sure how he got that though)

He also layed out other statistics, which weren't that pleasing.

Look at the United States, we have strict laws and even severe punishments for illegal acts. Yet despite all this, people still commit crimes everyday (even the severe ones).

I just can't understand your logic. I would agree with you, if the Catholic Church was inDouche not trying and being mediocure (typo?), but that is not true at all. From the outside, it may appear to be so. I would like Catholic Schools to shapen up better, yet I was told it isn't as easy as it sounds.

I also heard, that there is a new generation of the priesthood, who are mostly very orthodox. A lot of them still in seminary school.

Edited November 4, 2003 by Paladin D

[marielapin]

then why do so many people walk right out the door after receiving communion? why is this allowed? how many people actually examine their consicences thoroughly before receiving communion like the bible says? why doesn't the priest warn about the consequences of receiving the eucharist in the state of sin?

and now to get everyone fired up...

most people only receive the eucharist once a week...are you saying that this once-a-week act is the extent and epitome of one's relationship with Christ?  what happens when they go home? what about wednesday night at 3am?

Pretty much the only way that we can keep people from leaving after Communion is by blocking the door. This practice was pretty bad at a previous Church but after a couple of sermons and a mention or two in the monthly letters to the parish, this practice almost stopped. (Some people are just stubborn). As far as examining their consciences, this has been preached at every Catholic Church I have attended for a length of time (3 different churches). The priest does warn the congregation, but if they are like some people at my parish, who sit behind us and talk about baking chocolate cake after Mass, then only a swift blow to the head will set them aright.

The once-a-week act is the pinnacle of our weekly relationship with Christ. We should talk to Him every day during prayer. Some people are fortunate enough to go to daily Mass (I used to go 6 times a week when at school). Other options are going to Adoration, or just driving to Church and praying in front of the Tabernacle. That is why Catholic Churches are left open during the day. I have had several instances of personal trial where I needed to go to Church. His Presence there was enough to calm me down and to re-focus my mind on the tasks at hand.

And for those that are at work all day, there are plenty of sites that have web cams of Perpetual Adoration. These work as well. And this is all on top of daily prayers.

[Aloysius]

then why do so many people walk right out the door after receiving communion? why is this allowed? how many people actually examine their consicences thoroughly before receiving communion like the bible says? why doesn't the priest warn about the consequences of receiving the eucharist in the state of sin?

and now to get everyone fired up...

most people only receive the eucharist once a week...are you saying that this once-a-week act is the extent and epitome of one's relationship with Christ?  what happens when they go home? what about wednesday night at 3am?

one of my priests, GOD BLESS HIM!!!!, Father Newell, has spoken on many tough subjects. he is old, and i don't think ppl listen to him all that much. but everytime i hear him mention somthing like contraception or masturbation, MORTAL SIN, the necessity of confession, INDULGENCES, the need for examination of concience before recieving the BODY BLOOD SOUL AND DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST, i pray all priests will find his courage.

but the ppl don't like it. they don't listen. it doesn't get them on fire because society has been trained not to pay attention unless we get an emotional response. he's not the best speaker, so ppl just sit in their pews and la-dee-da around.

emotions are not all there is. there's something alot deeper, not feelings, not intellect, but SPIRIT, and it can be affected by emotion, but alot of times this is a shallow touch on the spirit. Something that affects the spirit isn't like a surge of emotion, but a conversion that takes u by surprise, a Eucharistic experience when you feel nothing but somehow feel everything, a personal relationship with God that isn't wishy-washy lovey-dovey emotionism that is found in todays society, but a self-sacrificial undying love which makes people want to do nothing to offend Him, and a little emotion will never bring about that kind of loyalty. if you read the writings of the Pope, how can u not see a man desperately trying to reach people. but the people are obstinate.

ppl walk right out the door after receiving communion because of the way society is. it's a miracle they're still coming to Church, prolly just cuz that's what they were trained to do on sundayz. society has taught them not to pay attention unless it stimulates their emotions, and alot of times they don't pay attention, especially to Father Newell who tells them what they don't want to hear, YOU CANT RECEIVE THE EUCHARIST IN A STATE OF MORTAL SIN. when priests preach this stuff, the ppl tune them out because of the obstinance of their own hearts.

and as for receiving the Eucharist once a week. the most devout and faithful attempt to get to mass on weekdays and such whenever they can because of their love for Christ. i actually don't see many protestant churches even having a service on weekdays, yet all Catholic Churches experience the eternal sacrifice and celebration at least once a day. If people would actually follow the teachings, and love Christ, and not be so obstinant to what the few courageous priests say, they would find Christ present all the time, even that 3 am on a wednesday. but every Sunday, they would renew that by finding Him COMPLETELY THERE, as He was there with His Apostles in the flesh. during the week u can always find Him present in the Spirit. and if u go to mass during the week, u find Him present in the flesh the way He was present to His disciples, truly there Body Blood Soul and Divinity. and every time a faithful Catholic goes to mass He renews the presence of Christ within Him, with the ultimate goal of being a perfect imitator of Jesus Christ to the world.

i agree with you mulls, that sermons like this should be more commonplace, sermons of priests who are on fire for Christ and His Church. but even if that happened, the obstinance of peoples hearts block it out many times.

as for your experience in other protestant churches, let's emphasize u being fair that you've only been to a few. There are alot of GREAT Catholic Parishes around <it's harder to find one in the US, but try Mexico or some other place around the world, and you'll find ppl on fire for Christ>

wednesday night at 3 AM i got my Bible, My Catechism, My Rosary, and my Soul to see Christ's presence as He is there in Spirit. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday at 7 pm i see Jesus Christ in the flesh the way He was present to the Apostles 2000 years ago.

[marielapin]

"If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

we may sing this psalm at Mass, but that doesn't mean people take heed.

It blows my mind how much beauty people miss when they are spaced out at Mass. They seriously have no clue what they are missing. Our Lord and Savior is there before us, as well as a cloud of witnesses, and all they can think about is chocolate cake.

[jasJis]

mulls,

Cut a little slack for people. We all have been given different levels of faith.

Did Jesus get ticked off at Peter when he denied knowing Christ 3 times?

How personal can the Church get when we individually recieve communion.

We aren't all leader sheep. Some of us are just sheep.

baaaaaaaaaa B)