*urge to kill, rising*

[LittleLes]

Hi Jmjtina,

I'm old fashioned and prefer books, but I have to admit, if one has the time and talent to search the web, a fair number of documents are available.

I was looking for a copy or either the Euchologion of St. Mark or the Barberini Manuscript which deal with the ordination of women deacons in the Byzantine and Greek Traditions.

I found some infomation on the web but, although this information was not written by "womenpriests.org.., its published on their website, so some Catholic apologists will probably claim it a "sham" perpertated by heretics, Modernists, feminists, Protestants, or other "enemies of Christ."

When there's no defense, engage in name calling. They teach you that in Theology 101.

[url="http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp"]http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp[/url]

LittleLes

P.S. If the URL doesn't work, search under the names of the documents.

Edited April 3, 2005 by LittleLes

[jmjtina]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 3 2005, 12:08 PM'] Hi Jmjtina,

I'm old fashioned and prefer books, but I have to admit, if one has the time and talent to search the web, a fair number of documents are available.

I was looking for a copy or either the Euchologion of St. Mark or the Barberini Manuscript which deal with the ordination of women deacons in the Byzantine and Greek Traditions.

I found some infomation on the web but, although this information was not written by "womenpriests.org.., its published on their website, so some Catholic apologists will probably claim it a "sham" perpertated by heretics, Modernists, feminists, Protestants, or other "enemies of Christ."

When there's no defense, engage in name calling. They teach you that in Theology 101.

[url="http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp"]http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp[/url]

LittleLes

P.S. If the URL doesn't work, search under the names of the documents. [/quote]
I wouldn't trust anything from womenpriests.org as I would a Jack Chick site or a KKK site.

I'll even look at a good orthodox Bryzatine, etc website who claims it. Url doesn't work.
pax.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 3 2005, 12:08 PM'] I found some infomation on the web but, although this information was not written by "womenpriests.org.., its published on their website, so some Catholic apologists will probably claim it a "sham" perpertated by heretics, Modernists, feminists, Protestants, or other "enemies of Christ."

[/quote]
It was written by John Wijngaards (the webmaster of womenpriests.org) , who was once a priest and believes in gay marriage, women ordination, and basically everything the Church is against. "The teaching authority has lost its credibility even among loyal pastors, who often struggle to limit the damage inflicted by offering their faithful a more sensitive pastoral guidance than Rome does." Translation: We permit sins that Rome condemns, such as fornication, contracepting, and homosexual acts.

So you believe in gay marriage and everything else this man writes? Or do you just pick and choose what "truth" you believe in?

pax.

Edited April 3, 2005 by jmjtina

[MC Just]

LOL. I think it's pretty hypocritical that these "liberals" who are fighting for Gay marriage and Womens Ordinations, are the same who brought on the sexual abuse scandals, and it wasnt pedophilia, it was a homosexual scandal. Almost like they started the scandals so they'd have a reason to introduce womens ordination. Satan thinks he's slick. Oh, it's also pretty ironic that the one's responsible for the seminaries at the times were Radical Feminists.

Edited April 3, 2005 by MC Just

[Aloysius]

they were ordained to the diaconate for only the sacrament of Baptism. That's the only sacrament they did. Full Holy Orders puts an indulable mark upon the soul making them a priest forever, ordination to the diaconate does not have the same mark upon the soul. Any person in the world, even a non Christian, has the ability to baptize. the official ordaining of women deacons was to not embarass women when baptismal rites contained a lot less.. um.. clothes

And all that said was, these women are to have a stable ministry to baptize other women. Because the only time someone other than a priest or deacon should baptize is in a case of emergency. To give someone a stable ministry is simply to make it ordinary for them to baptize.

Women are not proper matter for Priestly Holy Orders. Actually, the ordination to the deaconate was not Holy Orders at all, it was ordination. It was the official institution of women in a stable ministry for baptism of women.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]"I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
- Pope John Paul II, [i]ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS[/i][/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 3 2005, 04:12 PM'] Women are not proper matter for Priestly Holy Orders.  Actually, the ordination to the deaconate was not Holy Orders at all, it was ordination.  It was the official institution of women in a stable ministry for baptism of women. [/quote]
And there is the key. It was "ordination" in the sense of being put in an order of people, not in the sense of a sacrament.

Diakonos, the Greek for "deacon" means "assistant" or "helper"...that hardly means that all "diakonoi" were given Holy Orders.

[Thurifer]

[color=blue]I haven't read all the posts, but I'm gonna take a whack at it.
Hopefully, I won't repeat anyone.[/color]

Let's not forget that The Holy Spirit protects the Pope from teaching heresy.... So it's not gonna happen (women priests under Rome) -It's impossible. Impossible. Not going to happen, because it can't. Let's not forget Who has our backs!


Viva Christo Rey,
Gary

PS
No selling out guys!!!!! :angry:

Edited April 3, 2005 by Thurifer

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Thurifer' date='Apr 3 2005, 05:34 PM'] [color=blue]I haven't read all the posts, but I'm gonna take a whack at it.
Hopefully, I won't repeat anyone.[/color]

Let's not forget that The Holy Spirit protects the Pope from teaching heresy.... So it's not gonna happen (women priests under Rome) -It's impossible. Impossible. Not going to happen, because it can't. Let's not forget Who has our backs!


Viva Christo Rey,
Gary

PS
No selling out guys!!!!! :angry: [/quote]
Actually, the pope can commit heresy, according to St. Cardinal Bellarmine...he just can't do it ex cathedra on faith or morals...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[Oik]

The "deconesses" of the Eastern Church were not oradined as deacons. Their only real fuction was as a helper.

People used to be baptised naked. When a priest had to baptise a women (who was going to be naked) the priest would be behind a screen so as not to cause any scandal and he would speak the bapstism while a "deaconess" would baptise the naked woman.

End of story, fin.

These women did not have Holy Orders.

Ask Todd (Apotheoun), he's a Church Scholar and an Eastern Catholic.

[Oik]

The Celibacy requirement won't get lax, it will be tightened.

A new age in coming in our Church and it will be the renewal of Faith.
Heterodoxy is being trampled under foot.

[LittleLes]

Lets see if I understand what some posters are claiming.

Am I to believe that the Barberini gr 336 Mamuscript which describes the ritual used for the ordination of male and female deacons in the early Greek and Syrian Catholic Church is somehow a forgery? Do you think we should notify the Vatican?

And the argument that women deacons only were used to baptize is rather irrelvant. A number of bishops are elevated to that status by the Vatican to occupy curial position not to function as bishops, but that does not affect the validity of their Holy Orders.

Moreover, is ordination to the diaconate needed to validly baptize?

The only issue is whether or not the women validly received Holy Orders.

Not, of course, whether you like the person writing the article.

But, of course, if you have knowledge that the ancient Barberini Manuscript is a forgery, there may be a moral obligation to inform the Vatican. Is anyone seriously making this claim?

LittleLes

Edited April 3, 2005 by LittleLes

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Someone let me know if I'm misunderstanding...

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 3 2005, 07:04 PM'] Lets see if I understand what some posters are claiming.

Am I to believe that the Barberini gr 336 Mamuscript  which describes the ritual used for the ordination of male and female deacons in the early Greek and Syrian Catholic Church is somehow a forgery? Do you think we should notify the Vatican? [/quote]
I think they are saying that you misunderstand and misinterpret...hopefully the first more than the second.

[quote]And the argument that women deacons only were used to baptize is rather irrelvant. A number of bishops are elevated to that status by the Vatican to occupy curial position not to function as bishops, but that does not affect the validity of their Holy Orders.[/quote]

It would be irrelevant, if bishops who were made such solely for curial functions weren't actual bishops. However, for such curial functions, they are. That does not mean that all curial functions require Holy Orders.

[quote]Moreover, is ordination to the diaconate needed to validly baptize?[/quote]

That's not what they were saying. Look at "ordination" as "appointment to a position called the diaconate, but not the sacramental deaconate" and you'll be on the right track. They are saying that these women did not receive Holy Orders, but were "appointed to assistantship" (or, in other lingo which is not always to be understood sacramentally, ordained to deaconate), in order that women could be baptized without scandal.

[Oik]

The link below comes from a prebyterian source. It has an outlook for Biblical evidence and Early Church Father's on "deaconesses."

[url="http://www.all-of-grace.org/pub/schwertley/deacon.html"]Female Deacons?[/url]

It doesn't of course, take into account the Sacred Magisterium.

[Oik]

Raph, you got it right on!

[LittleLes]

Hi Raphael,

No. I think I am interpreting correctly.

The Apostolic Constitutions, Book VIII, The Barberini manuscript, and the Grotta Ferrata manuscript among others, all proscribe nearly identical Matter and Form used between 600 A.D. and 900 A.D in the ordination of both male and female deacons.

Moreover, these are extant manuscripts, so they can be studied.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Or perhaps this is a fact of history that you have difficulty accepting irrespective of the evidence.

LittleLes

[Oik]

[Oik]

[quote]CONCERNING THE DEACONESS--THE CONSTITUTION OF BARTHOLOMEW.

XIX. Concerning a deaconess, I Bartholomew make this constitution: O bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her in the presence of the presbytery, and of the deacons and deaconesses, and shall say:- THE FORM OF PRAYER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A DEACONESS.

XX. O Eternal God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of man and of woman, who didst replenish with the Spirit Miriam, and Deborah, and Anna, and Huldah; who didst not disdain that Thy only begotten Son should be born of a woman; who also in the tabernacle of the testimony, and in the temple, didst ordain women to be keepers of Thy holy gates,--do Thou now also look down upon this Thy servant, who is to be ordained to the office of a deaconess, and grant her Thy Holy Spirit, and "cleanse her from all filthiness of flesh and spirit," that she may worthily discharge the work which is committed to her to Thy glory, and the praise of Thy Christ, with whom glory and adoration be to Thee and the Holy Spirit for ever. Amen.[/quote]

LittleLes, are you an Eastern Catholic? If not, Deaconesses shouldn't be an issue...If you are, then this wouldn't be an issue, as you would recognise the authority of your Head, who has sworn alliegeance to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. either way, the Church is clear here, so why is there so much stife?

The ordaination spoken of here is not consistant with the ordination we know to-day. Please see the link I supplied you with earlier.

God Bless,
Chels

[Cam42]

[quote]The Apostolic Constitutions, Book VIII, The Barberini manuscript, and the Grotta Ferrata manuscript among others, all proscribe nearly identical Matter and Form used between 600 A.D. and 900 A.D in the ordination of both male and female deacons[/quote]

These documents are far too contmeporary....they cannot be trusted. Come on....seriously now. Isn't that your line? I mean they were written 600 and 900 years after the inception of the Sacrament.

And incidentally, what was it that Pope St. Gelasius I said about supposed female ordinands? Come on, you know....it is posted at your link.

You are ubsurd.

Cam

Edited April 4, 2005 by Cam42

[LittleLes]

Oh, I see. Now the documents proscribing the matter and form of administering Holy Orders to women cannot be trusted because they are too contemporary.

Is that your claim?

And whether on not Pope Gelasius liked the idea of ordaining women is rather immaterial, isn't it? But that's true today too.

It was done. That is the only issue. So any "constant teaching" claim to the contrary is shown to be in error.


Little Les