John Paul

[kateri05]

wait a sec, the Magnus title doesn't have to do with sainthood. its separate, verdad?

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 7 2005, 03:27 PM'] So you're saying that I can't call my grandmother great?

That's not veneration. It's a title of honor, not of sainthood. [/quote]
I haven't quite said that...I'm talking about implying that he's a Saint through it...(I'm thinking of "Pray for us" here...)

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Can.  1187 It is permitted to reverence through public veneration only those servants of God whom the authority of the Church has recorded in the list of the saints or the blessed.[/quote]

"Public veneration", I believe, simply refers to the Liturgical rites of the Church, not to the spirituality of the faithful. You can't just establish a feast day mass for anyone you want. You have to have permission from the Holy See, because the Liturgy is the official worship of the Church. Privately, you can venerate whoever you want.

Edited April 7, 2005 by Eremite

[Q the Ninja]

I would say public veneration is me trying to get everyone to venerate one of my siblings who have passed away. This does not mean [i]I[/i] don't ask for their intercession.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Apr 7 2005, 04:34 PM'] I would say public veneration is me trying to get everyone to venerate one of my siblings who have passed away. This does not mean [i]I[/i] don't ask for their intercession. [/quote]
I disagree, because the process for canonization (especially for local Saints) is a grassroots effort. The Church expects the faithful to show their support for a particular local Saint, and if the Bishop deems it appropriate, he formally joins their movement, and petitions the Holy See.

When the Saint in question is not just a local Saint, but a universal Saint, then the universal effort is going to be expected.

[Q the Ninja]

There is a difference between me saying he was an awesome person and we should Canonize him and me saying that we should right now ask for his intercession...

[Guest Eremite]

If we think he was a Saint, then we don't think he is in hell. There is nothing wrong with asking someone who you have moral certainty is not in hell to intercede on your behalf. That's pretty much all he does now anyway.

[Q the Ninja]

Why not pray for him?

As Catholics we believe in Purgatory too..

Edited April 7, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Guest Eremite]

We certainly can pray for him. And he can pray for us. Those in Purgatory can pray for us just as much as those in Heaven.

[Q the Ninja]

That I agree with...but I just think that the public veneration of the saint is on the verge of (if not actually) declaring him a Saint.

[Cam42]

They are calling him John Paul the Great, here in Detroit....at the request of Edmund Cardinal Sczoka.

Cam

[Guest Eremite]

Yes, most people are declaring him a Saint. Our vote, however, is always left to the final judgement of the Church.

There are always greats like John Paul II and Mother Teresa who are generally believed to be in Heaven. St. Francis of Assisi was canonized less than 2 years after his death.

[Ash Wednesday]

I thought it was Fulton Sheen who first called him John Paul the Great. Am I mistaken?

[luciana]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Apr 7 2005, 01:01 PM'] We all know what a sweetheart he was, but he's also someone you wouldn't want to mess with.
Did anyone catch the documentary about the pope being aired on EWTN last night? Particularly the part where he was speaking to the crowd and angrily railing on the Mafia with a booming voice and raised fist?

H.o.l.y. c.r.a.p.

If I was a member of the Mafia, I would be wetting my pants and running to the confessional after that exhortation. [/quote]
I saw it online last night instead of being in bed!!!! It's cool seeing him so young and energetic!!

[voiciblanche]

To my understanding (I was told this by my Theology teacher, who says he looked it up, and who is good, as Zach, I'm sure, will agree), it works like this --

The title "the Great", is not declared as is the title of "Saint" or "Doctor" -- it is obtained by the sense of the faithful. So we can call John Paul II "John Paul II the Great!" without the Magisterium declaring it. They don't declare it. Now, if we wanted to call Judas, for example, "the Great" the Magisterium would probably say no and we'd have to be obedient.


Are we wrong? Any corrections?

[Q the Ninja]

I'm not so much against the name...I'm against the implication that we should refer to him as a Saint and treat him as such.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Apr 7 2005, 07:49 PM'] I'm not so much against the name...I'm against the implication that we should refer to him as a Saint and treat him as such. [/quote]
1. Calling him "the Great" does not imply that he is a saint.
2. We should pray for his soul...there is some chance he has some time in purgatory.
3. This does not negate the greatness of his life.

[Q the Ninja]

I know, I've said such (to 1 that is)...but "pray for us"?

I think I've annoyed people greatly...most people haven't read this thread.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Apr 7 2005, 07:52 PM'] I know, I've said such (to 1 that is)...but "pray for us"?

I think I've annoyed people greatly...most people haven't read this thread. [/quote]
A priest of the Lincoln diocese told me that it's fine to ask for his intercession, so long as it does not scandalize, i.e. that others don't understand.

We can ask for the prayers of those in purgatory, too...so asking for his intercession is not implying that he's a saint.

[Q the Ninja]

Right, but I also believe that the Magisterium would rather us not ask for his intercession and publically ask all to do the same..