Was Mary's marriage to St. Joseph valid?

[Ziggamafu]

Ok...my wife raised this question in Mystagogy (sp.?) class today. If the Church has an infallible moral teaching (meaning the teaching has always been a moral truth) that marriages in which the couple has a pre-meditated decision NOT to bear children together are INVALID, then what are we to make of Mary and Joseph?

They decided not to have any kids ([i]together[/i], since God would miraculously bring the first one into the world) [b]before [/b]they were married, what would Church teaching have to say to that?

It can't be that since God gave the order, it was ok -- since God would be contradicting an infallible moral teaching (meaning his own teaching).

...it just seems that every attempt at an answer begs another question or tries to "dodge".

Any suggestions?

[FutureSoror]

There have been saints in the past who have been made to marry by their parents even thought they had made a vow of virginity and had spouses who decided to respect their vow. I understand Mary and Joseph's relationship to be the same. Mary desired to consecrate herself, but it was necessary for her to have a protector. Joseph, being a very pious man himself, respected that. That doesn't really answer the question, I know.

[phatcatholic]

well, here is my educated guess....

if you look at the heart of the church's decision to make such a marriage invalid, its all about being open to life. a couple who decides from the beginning that they aren't going to have children is not open to life. with "open-ness" to life as our indicator of a valid marriage, we now ask ourselves, "who is more open to life than Mary?" with her "yes" she brought "the way, the truth, and [i][b]the life[/b][/i]" (John 14:6) into the world, thus playing her part to ensure that we all have life--new life in Christ. her open-ness to the life of Christ is what makes her our mediatrix and co-redemptrix.

so, i think that in a very mystical sense, mary and joseph fulfill the requirements of a marriage open to life.

[Ziggamafu]

Eh. I don't think that's enough for this particular argument. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the Church and so I gotta think that their marriage was valid somehow, but this is a really good question. And if it comes up from one of my prot. friends, I want a good answer.

Mary was open to the life God gave her through Jesus, but that openness to life has nothing to do with [i]Joseph [/i]and so the marriage still has no validity in that arugment. She and [b]Jospeh[/b] were not open to life as a marital [b]unit[/b], thus not fulfilling the infallible obligations of marriage.

[Benedict]

You can go a step further, although it is not as forceful.

The Church does not consider a marriage completed until and unless the couple consummates their marriage. I believe the same is true in Judaism (which is what would apply in this case).

We know Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage.

[phatcatholic]

well, if we stay w/ the logic of my original argument, Joseph would be open to life too b/c he could have disregarded the message of the angel and put mary away quietly like he intended. or, worse still, he could have had her stoned, which would have been his right. but he did neither. instead, he took Mary in, protected her, and raised her child. in this way he shows his openness to the life of Christ.

in accepting Mary he accepted Jesus--that's something nice to ponder!!

also, mary and joseph's marriage is a jewish one, not a christian one. Tim Staples (popular catholic apologist) says that, in jewish custom, if you are faithful to the betrothal period, all the appropriate doweries are paid, and you exchange vows in a valid marriage ceremony, then by all extensive purposes you are married, and no one would contest it. it may be unfair of us to impose our christian requirements on what was a distinctly jewish thing.

i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Jake Huether]

I may be corrected if I'm wrong... please do so...

I believe Sacramental Marriage was instituted when Christ re-established it. Prior to Christ, marriage was not Sacramental.

Sacramental Marriage is invalid if there is no intention of having children.

Mary and Joseph, although not Sacramentally married, were legally married however. The only thing required for legal marriage is the "paper work", or in their time the equivelant.

Sacraments were instituted to give Grace. Joseph, who had already been married, if not legally than Sacramentally too - probably didn't need this Grace. Mary, Full of Grace already, likewise would not have needed this Sacrament.

A legal marriage was required so 1.) Mary woudln't be stoned to death and 2.) Jesus would have a father.

[phatcatholic]

that's a good point jake i'm glad ur back