The Unmoved Mover

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Can someone tell me how the unmoved mover moves things (More than just being Desirable and Intelligible). Please give references to legitimate Scholars... I have to write a 10 page paper on this...

Thanks...

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Joseph

[Paphnutius]

Umm, just a quick reply because I have Vesper here in a minute.

I think ultimatly it is a mystery, creation that is. God is the unmoved mover, the uncaused causer, etc... Aquinas came to the conclusion via coherence arguements based on the correspondence truth of the five ways that God is pure actuality. God is also pure spirit though. The question then arises, how can a purley spirutal being give something material or physical being following the law of coneservation...Like I said, I think it comes down to the mystery of creation and the interplay between the spiritual and physical "realms." A good place to start would be God being pure actuality and how He is the basis of all reality though.

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

I agree... I talked to a couple Philosphy Doctorates and they advised me to read Aristotle's Metaphysics and Aquinas's comentary on it. I think it is in there.

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Jospeh

[Paphnutius]

Right now I am reading a book called "After Aquinas" by Fergus Kerr. It present different versions of Thomism and what not. Gilson and Balthasar would be two people to look into on this topic. They seemed to have Thomas down pretty well.

[dUSt]

With a really big push broom.

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

I read up on the Push Broom theory ut it seems to have A Modus Tollens arguement that does demonstrate the Causality of the Divine Essence rather it bfuscates the epistomoligical effects of the Will. Ergo, we conclude that the Push Broom doesn't hold as a sound arguement for proof of the First motion.

[phatcatholic]

[b]how about a leaf-blower?[/b]

[img]http://patentlaw.typepad.com/patent/img104.jpg[/img] Edited April 14, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

But were does the electricity come from? It was to plug into an outlet somewhere...

Totus Tuus,
Andrew Joseph

[phatcatholic]

good call.......

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

The First Motion...???:

(Man was formed out of Clay...)

[img]http://buy.overstock.com/images/products/bnt/FC0764152157.JPG[/img]

[Jake Huether]

It's a mystery... but if you think about it this way, you start to realize things.

God holds ALL things in existence. That is, the material world rely's on God's thought of it. If God stops thinking about it, it is whisped away. We interact, then with things that only exist in the mind of God. If God, for instance, stopped wanting wood to exist, then we wouldn't be able to interact with things that are made of wood - they wouldn't exist.

I know I'm bordering on the thought that we aren't real. I mean, "I think therefor I am". We really do exist. And so does my wood table. But we only exist because God wants it. Therefore, in essense, we are physical only to the extent that we interact with physical things.

The Unmoved Mover moves things only by him thinking of them moving. They then physically move, but only as far as we physically persieve it to.

We interact inside the thoughts of God. So long as we are inside His thoughts about the physical, then we are in a physical world. God also holds us in spirit in the same way.

It's just a thought of God. Material is a thought of God. It is Material to Him Who made it though, in a different way - because He is thinking of it. We are only realizing what God is thinking of. We experience material differently, because we too are material.

[Paphnutius]

Yeah, many saw we are essentially ordered to God. You are accidentally ordered to your parents. Meaning that if something were to happen to your parents nothing would happen to your existence. With God it is different. He is pure act, basis of all reality. We piggy-back on His existence.

[quote] That is, the material world rely's on God's thought of it.  If God stops thinking about it, it is whisped away.[/quote]

I know what you mean, but I think will would be a better suited word here. I guess I am just picky since all in God is one and simple...

[quote]We interact inside the thoughts of God.  So long as we are inside His thoughts about the physical, then we are in a physical world.  God also holds us in spirit in the same way.

It's just a thought of God.  Material is a thought of God.  It is Material to Him Who made it though, in a different way - because He is thinking of it.  We are only realizing what God is thinking of.  We experience material differently, because we too are material.[/quote]

I am not meaning to be rude or question anything...but that kinda sounds close to pantheism. That everything is God. Not exactly but sounds close.

I think that it would be easier put that God willed us into existence and our existence is contingent upon His continuing will of our existence. God's will holds everything together, but not in the sense that we exist in His "mind." I am a seperate being from God, and by extension His thoughts, who is only in existence because God wills that I stay in existence.

There is a whole debate that if God wills everything, then can man act apart from God? Is it me willing this action or is it God willing the action?

Let me know your thoughts please.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 15 2005, 04:38 PM']
I know what you mean, but I think will would be a better suited word here. I guess I am just picky since all in God is one and simple...





[/quote]
Thanks for the response. Yes, you are right. "will" is probably a better word than "thought".

[quote]I am not meaning to be rude or question anything...but that kinda sounds close to pantheism. That everything is God. Not exactly but sounds close. [/quote]

Not being rude at all, just expressing your reaction!

I tried to clearly indicate that the thought of God is differentiated from God Himself, in that it is His thought that creates. We, and all of that which God willed, is created. It cannot be Him.

But thanks for pointing it out - don't want to cause confusion.

[quote]I think that it would be easier put that God willed us into existence and our existence is contingent upon His continuing will of our existence. God's will holds everything together, but not in the sense that we exist in His "mind." I am a seperate being from God, and by extension His thoughts, who is only in existence because God wills that I stay in existence. [/quote]

Good way of puting it. Although, we do in a sense exist in God's mind - since if it wasn't for being in His thoughts (if He stopped thinking of us) we would stop existing. But point taken.

[quote]There is a whole debate that if God wills everything, then can man act apart from God? Is it me willing this action or is it God willing the action?[/quote]

God willed us, and His will for us was to be an entity with a free will of our own. Maybe thought would be the better word here, since to think of something is somewhat different than to will something. God thought of us and we existed. He thought of us such that we are an entity with free will. God wills for us to exist and do His will, but it isn't His will that directs us - it only sustains us. God wills our free will - you could say.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Apr 18 2005, 11:28 AM'] God willed us, and His will for us was to be an entity with a free will of our own. Maybe thought would be the better word here, since to think of something is somewhat different than to will something. God thought of us and we existed. He thought of us such that we are an entity with free will. God wills for us to exist and do His will, but it isn't His will that directs us - it only sustains us. God wills our free will - you could say. [/quote]
I like that thought, ha ha ha?, about that. It appears to resolve a lot of the controversy if we say that God "willed" everything into existence. I think it is important to note that God is utterly simple and His existence and essence are one, so He is His willing, but His willed effects (us) are not Him.