did free will exist before evil?

[infinitelord1]

whats ur opinion?

[jasJis]

Well, of neccessity, the '[i]potential[/i] for evil' must exist for free will to exist. Without an either/or choice, there is no free will. Actual evil became reality only after a free will choice to do evil.

[Socrates]

Of course it did.
Evil is the choosing of a lesser good over a higher good (or a bad choice of the will).
Evil began with the rebellion of Satan and the other rebel angels. This was possible because the angels were created with free will (to choose good or evil).

[Paphnutius]

I think that the closest answer I could come up with is that they appeared at the same time. I am not sure we could pin-point the moment of free will for I think that it is regarded as a developing thing. The more one grows the "freer" (is that a word?) one is. The proper use of free will is choosing God, so the closer one comes to God the more one is free. I think that we also have to realize that evil is not some existence or some thing. Rather an absence of something that ought to be there, namely the good, or God.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Fall was a free will choice.

[Paphnutius]

After giving this much thought I have come to the conclusion that free will can and did exist before evil(sin).

God has perfect will does He not? I think we would say that he has perfect free will. With that in mind, God cannot perform evil or sin, especially if you take the definition as proposed by the privation theory. So, yes there was a time when free will existed without the possibility of evi. Apart from God, I would say no though...

[infinitelord1]

my friend says that evil existed at the very moment free will began......he says that in order for free will to exist.....there must be a choice between good and evil. This is a very logical point......do you agree? if not, please tell me.

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 14 2005, 08:15 PM'] my friend says that evil existed at the very moment free will began......he says that in order for free will to exist.....there must be a choice between good and evil. This is a very logical point......do you agree? if not, please tell me. [/quote]
Evil is a disordered act of the will. It is not some seperate, pre-existing "thing."
St. Thomas Aquinas defines evil as the lack of a due good. Evil is a negation.

For example, when Satan rebelled, he denied God the love, adoration, obedience, etc. that was due to Him, and chose to love only himself.

God did not create evil, and evil did not co-exist with God in eternity. It began when a free being made a disordered choice of the will.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Socrates

[infinitelord1]

isnt it true that we are all one in heaven.....if this is so then how could there be any other beings, such as satan, in heavent to make a different choice than god (since they are one).

[Paphnutius]

I second Socrates.

As I mentioned earlier, evil and by extension sin, is not a thing but an absence. You are making the mistake of taking evil as a being.

Also note God's perfect will. If God's will is perfect and He cannot act contrary to His nature then there was a time when free will existed when evil, or the potential for evil did not.

[Aloysius]

we all remain individuals in heaven, just in full communion with God

[Guest JeffCR07]

No, I do not agree.

One must note the difference between potentiality and actualization of a potential. In modal logic, this is the distinction between actual and possible worlds.

Evil did not exist until the potential for evil was actualized.

Think of it like this: I either throw a ball, or I don't. Every moment in which I choose not to throw the ball is a free choice. Then I throw the ball, at which point the ball has been thrown. The ball was not thrown before that point.

Its the same with evil. Every moment before the Fall was a free choice not to do evil. Then the choice to do evil was made. Evil did not exist before that particular choice to do evil.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 14 2005, 08:30 PM'] I second Socrates.

As I mentioned earlier, evil and by extension sin, is not a thing but an absence. You are making the mistake of taking evil as a being.

Also note God's perfect will. If God's will is perfect and He cannot act contrary to His nature then there was a time when free will existed when evil, or the potential for evil did not. [/quote]
[/QUOTE]

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 14 2005, 08:29 PM'] isnt it true that we are all one in heaven.....if this is so then how could there be any other beings, such as satan, in heavent to make a different choice than god (since they are one). [/quote]
That is not the Catholic teaching of Heaven. That is the Buddhist conception of Nirvana.

And at their creation, before the fall, the angels did not have the full Beatific Vision of the direct experience of God (the full sense of heaven). This was rewarded to the angels that did not rebel.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Socrates

[infinitelord1]

in your example i saw 2 choices jeff......one to throw the ball.......the other was to not throw the ball.


Anyways what u are saying is that free will always existed but it had to be caused by something? Something had to cause the (potential) evil to make the choice to seperate from god?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 14 2005, 09:15 PM'] my friend says that evil existed at the very moment free will began......he says that in order for free will to exist.....there must be a choice between good and evil. This is a very logical point......do you agree? if not, please tell me. [/quote]
Free will, despite popular usage, is the ability to love God freely. Loving God freely does not require that there also be those who love God unfreely, nor that there are those who do not love God at all. Therefore, free will does not require the existence of evil.

[Paphnutius]

What were disagreeing to Jeff? Something that I said?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 14 2005, 09:42 PM'] Anyways what u are saying is that free will always existed but it had to be caused by something? Something had to cause the (potential) evil to make the choice to seperate from god? [/quote]
The choice came from within us to choose a lesser good.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 14 2005, 03:52 PM'] Well, of neccessity, the '[i]potential[/i] for evil' must exist for free will to exist. Without an either/or choice, there is no free will. Actual evil became reality only after a free will choice to do evil. [/quote]
Actually according to Augustine and others this is not true. He defines free will as the ability to do good. Without grace man cannot choose good. Therefore there is no free will where men are enslaved by their sins. Adam and Eve were free in the garden. Totally free. There was no evil for them. But they were of course capable of doing evil.