Mind-sets

[Priscilla]

After reading a book called "Father and Son" by Edmund Gosse I became aware that "mind-sets" exist. (It was the bit about the Christmas pudding which got me!!)

Anyhow, I'm the first to admit that I have mind-sets - probably too many!!

Do they really exist?

If so, how can we identify them? And when we have identified them, how can test whether our mindsets are true or false against Scripture?

Then, if our mindsets are false - how can we dispell them?

[Priscilla]

Ooooh dear.....this is a bit of lead balloon!!!

Never mind.

If I can find the book I refer to I might quote from it and give you a few examples.

Here's a simple example of a mind-set I had (I give a simple one as it's easier to understand):

I was convinced, absolutely convinced, that Jesus was born in a stable.

In fact, I would have almost staked my life on it. But nowhere in Scripture is the word stable mentioned. Not even once.

You probably all already know that Jesus wasn't born in a stable - but to someone like me who'd been brainwashed for 40-odd years that Christ was born in a stable, I had a fixed mental attitude that indeed He was: and didn't Scripture confirm it? No, it didn't.

That is just a simple example (albeit a true one!), but the principle can apply to other more serious issues.

[Priscilla]

All you phatcats obviously do not believe you have mindsets then?

Very revealing!

Jonah is a good example of a spiritual man with a mindset.

Anyhow, I've had mindsets and have probably still got them.

At least recognising one has them is a start!!

You all obviously do not have any. Or think you don't.

(PS - I understand that "phat" means "preaching holy apostolic teaching" - is that right? So I do not intend to be rude by using the word "phat" with this meaning - I hope you understand).

[Cam42]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 16 2005, 02:34 PM'] All you phatcats obviously do not believe you have mindsets then?

Very revealing!

Jonah is a good example of a spiritual man with a mindset.

Anyhow, I've had mindsets and have probably still got them.

At least recognising one has them is a start!!

You all obviously do not have any. Or think you don't.

(PS - I understand that "phat" means "preaching holy apostolic teaching" - is that right? So I do not intend to be rude by using the word "phat" with this meaning - I hope you understand). [/quote]
Sure we have mindsets....they are Catholic.

If you want to read a great work on the Catholic mindset, try John Henry Cardinal Newman. He was a Protestant who converted to Catholicism....and one of the greatest thinkers of the 19th Century.

The work I am thinking of in An Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent. It is one of my favorite books.....and it speaks directly to your questions.

Cam

[Ash Wednesday]

Hi Priscilla and welcome! :tiphat:

I do think we all, including Catholics, can get caught up in the wrong mindsets.

Do you mean the mindsets within Catholicism?

And mindsets regarding what, in particular?
How we practice our faith? How we interpret scripture?
It's a very general question.

For example, within Catholicism, there are traditionalist Catholics that don't accept changes in the Church or Vatican II after the 1960s, and believe they must be "more Catholic than the pope." They get too wrapped up in religion for the sake of religion itself and at times fall in danger of losing sight of the Gospel.

There are also very liberal Catholics who elevate their own "cause" above the Gospel. In their own pride, they don't want to admit that they may be wrong. They get so wrapped up in their own personal "issues" and anger that they lose their humility and "open-mindedness" that they wish to cherish so much.

People can get into the wrong mindset about God. The idea that God is some indifferent, liberal, wishy-washy hippie-God that doesn't care about our lifestyle is a wrong mindset. The idea that God is a perpetually angry, wrathful God just waiting to throw us into hell is another wrong mindset.

I, myself, get caught up in some wrong mindsets where I spend more time watching the actions of others instead of examining my own heart. I have at times a very hypocritical mindset.

So that's how I interpret the question.

[Cam42]

Well said Ash...

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 16 2005, 03:01 PM'] Sure we have mindsets....they are Catholic.

[/quote]
I like it!

Well, its honest anyhow.

Hi Cam42 - nice to be in dialogue with you again.

The book you mention: I might just try and get hold of a copy. I don't often read Catholic books: the only one I've ever dipped into was "The Path to Rome" which was very interesting and smashed one or two mind-sets I had about Catholics.

OK - so you all have Catholic mindsets: great......but what about us poor old prots then? How are you ever going to get into and smash down our prot mind-sets if you never move out your comfort-zones?

On this site I've had several prot mindsets smashed: but only because I was willing to peep into the Catholic mindset. Take the veneration of Mary and praying to dead saints for example: an area which I find difficult - yet I was willing to consider it and try and see it your way. It is still a problem for me to do it: but I understand Catholics better now, and I will never again accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary and the saints - because to Catholics its not worship. You've all made that very clear. And I shall also put right any prot who might glibly accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary.

[Guest Eremite]

Priscilla,

I'm not sure what you mean by "mind sets". But, in the context of Catholic/Protestant relations, the Second Vatican Council was very adamant on the need for both sides to embrace a purification of heart and memory. Pope John Paul II writes in his Encyclical letter "Ut Unum Sint":

[quote]Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.[/quote]

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Apr 16 2005, 04:53 PM']

[/quote]
Great post Ash - very honest. Very refreshing. Thanks. I think you've said it all!!

[quote]I do think we all, including Catholics, can get caught up in the wrong mindsets.

Do you mean the mindsets within Catholicism?
[/quote]

I guess so - yes. I've had one or two of my prot mindsets smashed by dialogue on this site: I just wondered if it was possible for Catholics to move out of their comfort-zones to examine prot mindset etc.

I don't really know.....I'm just searching and thinking things through a lot.

[quote]And mindsets regarding what, in particular?
How we practice our faith? How we interpret scripture?
It's a very general question.
[/quote]

I don't know - yes I guess about practice maybe. It's difficult to explain: you tell me!!! Though I think you have in your post: you basically said it all. Which is great.

You get traditional "stuck-in-the-muds" and silly "liberals" in EVERY faith. I think they are examples of bad mindsets. You're right.

How the church can overcome that I don't know. Perhaps love is the key.

[quote]For example, within Catholicism, there are traditionalist Catholics that don't accept changes in the Church or Vatican II after the 1960s, and believe they must be "more Catholic than the pope." They get too wrapped up in religion for the sake of religion itself and at times fall in danger of losing sight of the Gospel.
[/quote]

Very honest. I've heard about Vatican II: I have a Catholic pen-friend and she told me a bit about it, becuase she said my Dad (who's always been a lapsed Catholic) could be welcomed back into the Catholic church now without the stigma which was pre-Vatican II and she even got a Sister Bonventure to send him a Rosary! (Not that I was well pleased with my beliefs over this: but I though some prayer is better than no prayer! And God is gracious!).

So there are some Catholics then with such a fixed mindset that they will not submit even to the Vatican? Wow. That's interesting. Another eye-opener for me.

[quote]I, myself, get caught up in some wrong mindsets where I spend more time watching the actions of others instead of examining my own heart. I have at times a very hypocritical mindset.

So that's how I interpret the question.[/quote]

That's very honest of you - thanks.

You interpreted the question beautifully and honestly. I'm very grateful - it's been a help to me.

[Cam42]

[quote]Take the veneration of Mary and praying to dead saints for example: an area which I find difficult - yet I was willing to consider it and try and see it your way.[/quote]

On this particular idea, think of it this way....we don't consider the saints to be dead. Oh sure they are dead in the flesh, but they are very much alive in the Spirit. The soul is eternal. Need biblical proofs...look to Revelation.

Cam

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 17 2005, 12:06 PM']
On this particular idea, think of it this way....we don't consider the saints to be dead. Oh sure they are dead in the flesh, but they are very much alive in the Spirit. The soul is eternal. Need biblical proofs...look to Revelation.

Cam [/quote]
I've just given my particular "mind-set" on it in another thread!!! Here it is:

God says souls do die: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"

We are all sinners.

I know what you mean however - I don't really know for sure of course: I tend toward believing that death is a sleep.

Nevertheless I do believe that blessed are those who die in the Lord, and that our "breath" "ruach" goes back to God.

What I do NOT believe is that we have some immortal soul which floats up to heaven when we die and we can look down on earth and watch everything going on: because God has told us "No man has ascended into heaven". Only the Lord Jesus of course.

I do not believe that the dead are omnipotent or omnipresent enough to hear our prayers.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]I do not believe that the dead are omnipotent or omnipresent enough to hear our prayers.[/quote]

The universe is a finite place. God can infuse knowledge of everything in that finite universe into a soul if he so wishes. What he cannot do is infuse knowledge of the infinite.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 17 2005, 12:19 PM']
The universe is a finite place. God can infuse knowledge of everything in that finite universe into a soul if he so wishes. What he cannot do is infuse knowledge of the infinite. [/quote]
Sorry - that doesn't make sense to me.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 12:13 PM'] I've just given my particular "mind-set" on it in another thread!!!  Here it is:

God says souls do die:  "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"

We are all sinners.

I know what you mean  however - I don't really know for sure of course:  I tend toward believing that death is a sleep. 

Nevertheless I do believe that blessed are those who die in the Lord, and that our "breath" "ruach" goes back to God. 

What I do NOT believe is that we have some immortal soul which floats up to heaven when we die and we can look down on earth and watch everything going on:  because God has told us "No man has ascended into heaven".  Only the Lord Jesus of course.

I do not believe that the dead are omnipotent or omnipresent enough to hear our prayers. [/quote]
This contradicts scripture:

Genesis 8:21; And the Lord smelled a sweet savour, and said: I will no more curse the earth for the sake of man: for the imagination and thought of man's heart are prone to evil from his youth: therefore I will no more destroy every living soul as I have done.

Genesis 9:12; And God said: This is the sign of the covenant which I give between me and you, and to every living soul that is with you, for perpetual generations.

1 Thessalonians 5:23; And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:19; Which we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, and which entereth in even within the veil;

James 5:20; He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Revelation 18:14; And the fruits of the desire of thy soul are departed from thee, and all fat and goodly things are perished from thee, and they shall find them no more at all.

and finally, my favorite passage of scripture:
Wisdom 3:1-13; 1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. 2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: 3 And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. 4 And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. 5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. 6 As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them. 7 The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds. 8 They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever. 9 They that trust in him, shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love shall rest in him: for grace and peace is to his elect. 10 But the wicked shall be punished according to their own devices: who have neglected the just, and have revolted from the Lord. 11 For he that rejecteth wisdom, and discipline, is unhappy: and their hope is vain, and their labours without fruit, and their works unprofitable. 12 Their wives are foolish, and their children wicked. 13 Their offspring is cursed: for happy is the barren: and the undefiled, that hath not known bed in sin: she shall have fruit in the visitation of holy souls.

Priscilla, souls most certainly are immortal. Unless of course you believe that scripture is incorrect. We then have another conversation on our hands.

Cam

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Sorry - that doesn't make sense to me.[/quote]

You said that the affairs of all men is too much knowledge for one person to possess (and hence, the Saints could not know what is going on on earth). But the affairs of man are not infinite. It is a finite amount of factual knowledge. There is nothing that would make it impossible for God to infuse this finite amount of factual knowledge into man, because man is capable of receiving as much finite knowledge God is willing to give him.

This is opposed to infinite knowledge, which is God himself. Man cannot comprehend all that God is, because God is infinite. The knowledge of God is infinite, while the knowledge of human affairs is not infinite, but a finite quality.

Edited April 17, 2005 by Eremite